Calling all writers, directors, and producers! Moderated by Craig Emanuel at Ryan Murphy Productions, the March on Washington Film Festival’s Mind Your Movie Business Workshop Series is a set of monthly workshops designed to support the career success of student and emerging filmmakers!
Moderator: Craig Emanuel, Executive – Ryan Murphy Productions
Panelists
- Liesl Copland, Producer, Found
- Rena Ronson, Talent Agent, The Social Dilemma
- Eddie Vaisman, Producer, Bad Education
Play Video
Transcript:
good evening everyone and Welcome to our third and final panel discussion for the year tonight we are going to focus on
what is the state of the market for the distribution of independent film and documentaries we are so lucky to have
with us this evening three TR truly wonderful guests in lisal Copeland who worked at such companies as WME Endeavor
content and participant media Reena Ronson who works at the United talent agency and independent producer Eddie
vicman who was joining us from Japan and who is a partner in the production company site unseen their collective
experience over many years I know is going to be incredibly informative for all of our participants before we get
started let me give you a brief background about each of our three panelists lisel Copeland most recently
lisel served as the Executive Vice President overseeing participants Global sales efforts and working in tandem with
the company’s content teams throughout the development and production ction advising on optimal strategic options
and partner strategy for all of participants projects having worked at the pous companies including WME Netflix
and Endeavor content lel’s expertise on the rapidly changing media landscape
allowed her to bring her Market Focus to participants high quality film and television output a 20 plus year
entertainment industry veteran lisel has worked in the specialty film sector for
most of her career with the goal of democratizing distribution for Unique independently produced projects before
before joining participant lisel was a partner and Executive Vice President at Endeavor content where she ran their
documentary practice after years of being a WME focused on film advisory
sales and financing Services across her career lisel has a deep focus on Social
Justice Reform and impact focused content she serves on the board of represent just ice The Advisory Board of
Som TV and is a graduate of the University of California Berkeley projects that lisel has worked on
include the Whitney Houston documentary the last animals a documentary about the poaching of elephants and rhinos in
Africa that we worked on together that Tina Turner documentary and a beautiful documentary found the story of three
American teenage girls each adopted from China who discovered through 23 and me
that they were blood relatives lisel thank you so much for joining us this evening thank you so much Craig for that
brilliant introduction and for having me my pleasure Reena Ronson is a partner and head of the United talent agency
independent film group where she has worked for more than 14 years prior to that Reena was the senior vice president
and the co-head of William Morris independent where she spent a total of 11 years and prior to that Reena was the
head of international sales and acquisition at Lakeshore entertainment a prominent production and sales company
Reena became the first woman to run an independent financing packaging and sales department at an agency as its
Soul head growing up in New York Reena initially wanted to do nothing
associated with the business side of the entertainment industry but wanted to be a singer songwriter however after
injuring her vocal cords she turned her to her second love which was Spanish language and Latin American studies
after a job at Nickelodeon as an intern Reena started her career on the business side of the industry working as a
co-head of international sales at Fox laa over the years Reena has worked with
some extraordinary filmmakers including hia al- Mansour a female director from
Saudi who directed one of the first featurelength movies ever made in Saudi and it’s someone who I also had the
pleasure of working with her other in clients include chill salaway Sarah Paulie Blake Bell Greta W Gog just to
name a few at UTA the independent film group has been involved in some wonderful movies including the big sick
itonia I feel pretty ladybird hidden figures and call me thank you Reena for
making time for us this evening thank you for that and for reminding me of my
past Reena I’m gonna start um with some questions for you you’ve been involved
in the selling of independent movies for nearly 30 years over that period of time I’ve been lucky enough to be involved in
both setting up and selling a number of pictures with you also during that time we’ve witnessed fairly significant
changes in the way that indie films are both set up and distributed and in the last few years it feels like the
independent film Market is more challenging than ever before even though tax subsidies have helped fill some of
the gaps needed to get films made the theatrical distribution of independent films feels like it’s become the
exception rather than rule the rule and even though the stream is entry into the distribution is flourishing for quite a
few years the amount of content that platforms like Netflix are Distributing today has over the last 12 to 24 months
been cut back as has the level of their license fees in many cases which has
certainly not made things easier for Independent Producers perhaps you might start by telling us briefly how you got
into the sales business and why and then talk about how you you see where the market is today and the challenges that
you are facing in trying to secure financing as well as the difficulties in securing Distribution on a pre-sale
basis um well you sort of gave a little hint about how I got in the business but
um uh outside of the uh doing nightclubs in New York City I I actually injured my
vocal cord so I needed to take a break and find some other love and so I had worked with a documentary filmmaker and
I went back to graduate school to think i’ you know to be a bilingual ed teacher and and while I was there I did the
internship at Nickelodeon and I think that I was so inspired by um Nickelodeon
because to me it was uh it was entertaining but and not teaching but
actually um working with um uh sort of an educational front but actually by
virtue of entertainment but what really really got me into the business um was a
research report I had to do um in my in my graduate program at Columbia and I
chose we had to pick some some form of informal education to study and I chose
this project in Mexico that essentially uh educated farmers um in a Schoolhouse
via a video monitor and so they would travel on foot many miles and miles away
to be informed and educated on agricultural skills and for me it was that aha moment of wow the power of
media I mean this can really change educate and I wanted to learn everything
I could about it and so um I switched over to media studies that’s when I did my Nickelodeon um internship and I got
the bug basically of of creating materials and and and and thinking I
wanted to be in the children’s space and what got me into the distribution space
was really more coincidental um there were no jobs in children’s programming then and but what I learned in um at
Nickelodeon was I was in charge of Acquisitions and so I would evaluate um programs that you know that
came in on these video cassettes and decide if they were ready for Nickelodeon daytime or Nickelodeon night
so for me in you know my 20s I was like this is I all I had to do is watch television it was kind of a joy and I
had to decide if it was you know appropriate for nighttime um and that was what I learned
about distribution um those were the people who would come and sell their their goods basically share what they
had produced but I didn’t really understand that then and I went to a um a party and somebody said hey I hear
there’s a job at a company called Fox lber um they’re a Distribution Company and to me my instinct was well I don’t
want to do that I don’t want to like pedal programming around you know for people to buy I want to be the one
creating them but I decided it would be a really good experience to learn about it because I didn’t know about it and so
I took a an interview at Fox lber and I learned really a little bit more about
what distribution was and distribution was um working with the entire
Marketplace overseas and the job allowed you to travel and for me it was an
immediate I like to travel I love movies I’m going to learn exactly what the market wants so that I can figure out
what to make and that began my career essentially is I’m going to travel the world and go to the markets and the
festivals and figure out what they want in France Japan Asia Latin America and it became sort of a dream job because it
was information for me it was it was learning about each culture each country uh what they wanted what they what they
didn’t want what resonated and it gave me um a leg up really when I got into
the business I’m in now so I was doing International I was doing International sales for about 11 and a half years
total in the several companies I worked for and um and I got into the agency
business because they sort of courted me to come and said well with your experience
internationally uh and and what you know we have within the agency in terms of
writers directors it would be a really great thing for you to come over here and we could start a division and that
was cassan elways who I worked with who had been selling domestic rights and so the idea was well let’s raise financing
let’s figure out how to get movies made um by virtue of understanding the
international marketplace and and so we did and um and launched William Morris
independent and it was an exciting time because the international market had been booming you could raise money by
get by pre-selling overseas and I knew about that because I had done that before so we started raising money um
and getting movies made shooting them in Germany taking advantage of of German funding and that began sort of the
business of independent financing I mean it really was an
amazing period of time as you said in in those days you could take foreign pre-sale estimates in some cases go off
to a European Bank who would lend against you know those movies and like
most things in our entertainment industry at some point when those estimates showed to be faulty and and
overreaching the mark then all of a sudden the business becomes a little bit more conservative and you see this
change and adjustment you know in in the industry and I guess that CRA that was
actually advantageous because what I would do is I was no longer selling internationally but I knew the market so
if somebody gave me a set of estimates that I thought no no no I could tell I could I could analyze them as well but
you’re right we also we also started to figure out who were the reliable people and who and and and and who weren’t so
if we kind of cut forward to you know the last you know few years the the market really has significantly changed
back then you know theatrical was obviously a very significant component and drove all of the ancillary markets
but give your thoughts on kind of where we are today and what are the challenges that you see in the business that that
you’re involved in at the agency yeah I mean on the positive front the International Community has matured um
um it used to be that you really needed that us theatrical deal in place uh to
get uh you know to really generate business overseas I think um because of
the maturity in the marketplace and the success of the theatrical business and the German business overseas Spanish as
well although all the markets are constantly shifting um it’s become interesting to
watch that while there’s nothing like having a u us success story in the
theatrical Marketplace many of these countries don’t necessarily rely on the US as much and
they should not I mean if it’s if you can make it a success in your country it shouldn’t have to rely on the success in
another um the only important thing is the winding so what has H what happened
really in the past five years it’s we really got hit we got we had covid which took us out for three years it
accelerated the streaming business which was you know a good thing for the
streamers a bad thing for theatrical distribution um people got comfortable in their homes uh and um and so fewer
and fewer films were getting released because people were afraid to go to the movies and then we got hit with a double
strike so that didn’t make things much better um and I’d say that you know the
streaming business is still strong although that’s changed and we can talk about that as well but it doesn’t
necessarily mean that you can’t release a film theatrically in let’s say France or in Germany or somewhere else the
thing that will matter is the windwing so what what what’s the good part of the
maturity of the international marketplace is that you are no longer
necessarily beholden to a US theatrical release you just have to make sure that
your windows are protected so that when it goes onto a streaming platform if that’s how it sells in the US you have
to be protected so it can and and and and it’s Vice vers if it’s being released theatrically the
US streamers don’t have a problem with it anymore they allow a US theatrical
release as well in that country so it’s really about working together on the winding and the release patterns of each
country the problem though is is the um is the US theatrical business because um
in general what we used to see Craig as you know are were um companies taking
risks and and risks in a way they saw film they loved it and they felt compelled they knew how to get the the
the the public engaged they would take that risk today they’re so afraid there’s such a fear
that people won’t show up and we we and I and I actually don’t think that’s the
case I think people are not showing up because they’re not there the movies are not being offered and they and and so
that becomes a problem too and and it it’s not that they won’t show up but it
it’s that the theatrical distrib Distributors need to figure out a a sort
of not not a Grassroots only but alternative ways to Market and to get
the create noise for the audience to be aware that these movies are out but I
for one you know I look at what’s out and they’re not the movies I want to see all the time yeah I mean I think one of
the things that’s challenging is you know you might make a lowbudget filmm for three or four million
um but the truth of the matter is the cost of releasing that film is not necessarily a function I mean it’s
somewhat a function of the budget at the end of the day if you want to release a national marketing campaign and do
something other than a platform release and have a couple of cities in La New York and wherever um you know the cost
of releasing a film theatrically can actually be more expensive than the cost of the film itself and I think that’s
one of the challenges that that I think people have facing today I think you’re right and I think that’s where the
Grassroots and the alternative ways of of reaching the market come to play
grants something but you know and I don’t know what the answer is 100% we
have you know ideas and we talk about it oftentimes but you know it sure would be nice to develop some type of a grant to
be able to help support this you know theatrical Community because it’s going
to be a problem otherwise and and we don’t to see The Disappearance of the independent Marketplace too many
wonderful films and filmmakers that emerge from those those films and right now the festival becomes the real the
real supporter of these films um perhaps you can talk about a
recent example of film that you’ve been involved in either one that you know you’ve been involved in pre-selling or
one that’s been a festival just because I think it’ll be interesting to our audience I mean we can talk about I mean
there’s there many obviously but um we had a film called May December um
that went that we the way we put that film together um was by getting the
international value put together with um whatever soft money existed and then
finding an equity investor that was willing to take that risk that with a cast like that and a and a and a and a
recognizable and and seasoned filmmaker that there would be a payoff and and it
ended up being of course true but that was an example of a film that we took to the international marketplace first and
through rocket science who did pre-sales and pretty much sold a a good chunk of
the marketplace so that by the time we ended up going to the can film festival a you know there had been
uh there was a little bit of there was enough money that has returned in a certain Gap against the US and uh we
ended up selling it to Netflix at that point for a significant amount of money where everyone won and the film recouped
and then it went on to obviously go through the the award cycle so it became a you know a perfect example of how we
set these films up and how you how you have to is you having certain amount of
cast if you’re going to have a budget that is you know upwards of five million these days and um and have enough
coverage internationally so that your Gap is not too big that you can someone will take a risk is it is it fair to say
because in a film like that you obviously had you know a director that’s had an incredible track record and and a
very much recognized um cast of of of lead actors
and presumably that makes it a lot easier to to contemplate um uh
pre-selling distribution rights my feeling a little bit is that without some of those elements that the
challenge of trying to pre-sell is a lot more difficult in today’s market yeah it
is which is why when we when we analyze films and the budgets it’s really
important for us to look at all value including the US value of the film and
sometimes we have to put us value at a at a zero at straight distribution
because we don’t you know because we don’t know what those numbers are but the the international marketplace you’re
right without you know without the star value it becomes a little trickier which is why we we try to be very
curatorial of the stories and listen to the marketplace I mean we you have to be aware of the marketplace today and what
they want and what works and what doesn’t work because a drama Unfortunately today without having that
high level cast is going to be very difficult to finance unless somebody just wants to write a check and that is
very rare today as you know as well so it’s really being in tune with the marketplace knowing exactly what people
want and and those budgets have to be really tight and and realistic for what
it is that you’re selling and let me tell you there are films like you know you mentioned ladybird earlier it was
Greta gerwig’s debut she had never directed before but she’s a brilliant writer and she knew her way around sets
and we had cersa Rona attached we couldn’t get anyone to finance that film literally no we went everywhere everyone
passed and we ended up you know had two Equity investors that were interested and and and the film got made and then
sold and it became you know $52 million gr budget film it was a huge success so
those stories happen too but less frequently thank you LEL um let’s which
let’s which over to you um you know over the course of your career in the industry you’ve certainly helped set up
both movies and you know documentaries um and and working for a company like participant you know which
describes itself as a pioneer of socially conscious you know storytelling
um perhaps start by telling us a little bit about what you know inspired you to
you know to work in this space that’s largely focused you know on very important social justice um you know
issues which I think um as in the feature film world have also become challenging over the L last couple of
years yeah definitely yeah you know it’s funny when Reena was talking there ‘s a
a funny similarity to how I even came to the film business at first which then brought me to the answer to your
question that I just have to mention because um I too had a vocal cord injury
that put me on my uh on some rest of my voice when I had um finished a job kind
of in the travel industry kind of seeking what I was going to do what I really wanted to do and I started thinking a lot about Cinema and my love
of movies as the thing that I wanted to move to New York and find a way to kind of crack the code on and getting into
but it was that vocal cord injury that put me in the cinemas seeing my first Quenton Tarantino film put me in Kim’s
video studying um you know directors from overseas that I really started to realize the power of Storytelling to
transform and most specifically to answer your question you know I when I did move to New York I um had a personal
experience um that uh with a friend who was diagnosed with cancer and learned
that there was a documentary um that was looking for financing I had worked in production at that time for a
couple of years and I had left my job working for a production company in New York and was thinking about how to get
to the business side of it and I fell into this documentary about uh the Navaro family and their son Thomas who
was fighting for access to non-toxic treatment for his brain tumor and you know having had the personal experience
of someone going through chemotherapy radiation in such a rapid fire kind of Industrial Way in the medical complex
medical Freedom suddenly seemed like something that was really important to me and I funneled all of that in just
supporting this documentary that was being made at the time that ended up becoming a different documentary called cut poison burn um and that was sort of
what put me into the Awakening of my you know love of documentary in particular
which you know at the time I was volunteering at the Tribeca film festival and then had a job there and
had an opportunity to go to work at CTIC during the Boom of documentary uh so my
first year at CTIC we brought suiz me and dig to Sundance with Josh Brun as
well and um you know when I later you know was handling documentaries
primarily a lot of films as well with you know people like Micah green who was there at the time I was the point on
documentary because documentaries didn’t fall into the output deals of the Distributors the Sony of the time and so
whatever the pay output deal was of EX company which was suddenly acquiring documentaries in you know in droves at
Sundance and and festivals like that I had the opportunity to start to place
the pay television Arena talked about the windowing the different Windows um directly and when I got a call uh from a
guy by the name of me schwartzstein who asked me if he could pay a million dollars for the VOD rights to Supersize
Me I was like what are VOD wrs and so that was 2003 and that was really kind
of a combination of transforming both my you know love of story and how it could really change things and kind of ended
up arcing all the way to participant through a lot of time spent in between on impactful stories um and then the
business angle of how the business was changing at the time where those documentaries were not perceived as as
valuable in their later windows from theatrical and suddenly were and I was sort of at the Forefront with my team
Micah and Aon Henri and Dana O’Keefe included of really placing high value deals in multiple windows around that
category so it was sort of a combination of that that Lit the fire um and just could see that once those documentaries
could reach these wider audiences bowling for Coline that era was so impactful in lighting that fire under me
to sort of stay as close as I could to that space even during my time at later Netflix and Endeavor you know we were
sort of we had at Netflix at the time we had five million subscribers which is hard to remember um and we had super
users of documentary and I remember um Al Gore referring to um him and Tipper
at the time watching documentaries on Netflix and thinking of Netflix almost as the Gutenberg Press as Freedom of
Information um and so you know that transformation All In The Cauldron at once is sort of kept me with you know
always at least part of the back burner of my practice and Endeavor and then later coming to participant to make it
all front burners all the time uh and has kept me there ever since I mean it
is inter because back in the day you know you had like Sheil and Evans at HBO who was just a champion of some truly
extraordinary documentaries and then all of a sudden we had this period of time where particularly the streamers and and
Netflix all of a sudden started to acquire a significant amount of documentary content and you know you’d
go to festivals like Sundance and you know the whether it was about scravel or
whatever it was about there was a lot of documentaries being sold and the license fees were actually pretty decent um and
I feel like what happened was it gave documentary filmmakers a sense that actually instead of making these
documentaries for6 or $700,000 there was now this potential of selling them for license fees of two
three you know plus million dollars and in some cases a lot more and now I now I
feel that you know there has been like in the film industry companies like
Netflix have have pulled back significantly on the acquisition of documentary content and and and license
fees have also been cut back which makes I think you know the documentary space
more challenging so maybe kind of share your thoughts on what you think you know the current status of that market is and
what are the challenges you see that you know producers are facing yeah I mean you know to Reena
covered a lot of just the unfortunate impacts of Co and the strike and and the double strikes and and all of that and
and normally what I would have said is you know as streamer business evolved when I was at Netflix in 2006 to 2008
you know it was all about the longtail right and they were having this just Wildfire performance of things more in the niche categories they could really
lift um uh into wider audiences right now I would say if you just think of the
Netflix strategy alone or if you look across some of the other streamers it’s David Beckham Selene Dion and these very
very noisy things because of the streamer arms race and needing to pull subscribers and keep sub subscribers is
a different Dynamic now than lifting this content category across a sort of a reliable less churning out subscriber
base right and and typically if it weren’t if it hadn’t been for the for Co and the strikes kind of the double
triple whammy there I think that the theatrical space would have kind of picked up the ball from the streamers
sort of maybe commercializing each of the content categories they’re in and maybe carrying more about the True
Crimes and the celebrity value and the and the sort of known IP uh versions all
their content categories including um documentary and non-scripted series but you know I think the theaters and the
and the the theatrical companies are still recovering so they too need that noise Factor right or they need that
known IP Factor where you can kind of draw a core audience and hope to cross things over but I think you know the the
moment right now of the streaming business at large is troubling me I
think for other reasons as well I think you know the the growth of the streamers
and then the dropout of the floor when you know suddenly Wall Street needs them to focus on profitability than growth um
you know has put us in a moment where somehow storytelling and the
relationship of Storytelling to just human civilization really if I’m going to go Macro for a minute has been so
radically disrupted you know that the the idea of gathering around a communal fire or going to the Greek Theater or
whatever we would do to sort of say hey here’s this story that’s reflecting back our culture which is again the area I
care most about um and I can gather with people and I can actually get value out
of EX writer director group of creatives telling me and speaking back to me what I’m experiencing in my culture right now
and that that’s all kind of I don’t know where to go for that I don’t think people know where to go for that if you and I were to sit down and try and watch
everything in streaming it would take us as I think recently reported 350 years of our life which we don’t have to watch
everything so how do I know where to go and so we fundamentally disrupted the relationship of almost all of human
civilization and story and how to value and place value on it and so I think that typically it’s the independent
circuit and independent scene and the theatrical companies that know how to ascribe that value and so I kind of go
where Reena was going to where I think it’s going to need a continued set of waves of disruption around the marketing
tactics that these companies use we can’t get stuck in these algorithms I think we know that politically we’re
having trouble when people are getting stuck in algorithms being served content they already agree with and I think
we’re losing not finding that we can be served content in a streaming or theatrical Universe because things are
being marketed to us where we already agree and maybe already want that but what about the new thing what about the
artistically driven thing that I think we need to be pulled towards and no is even there and amid this kind of moment
and so we’re in this kind of you know Century long series of you know radical
waves of disruption and a I call it like almost a hundred-year correction and I
think that the the exciting thing is where disruptive marketing companies I think are very focused on how to jump
those algorithms and think about how to find audiences in different ways so I put a lot of value and faith in in
groups that are doing that and I’m I’m really trying to figure out for myself how those kinds of uh tactics and that
kind of Brilliance can be lifting the categories of the more cinematic International Film that Reena talked
about or documentaries because it should be possible with the taste-based um kind
of targeting that we can do but for certain privacy issues obviously that uh I could be serve Cinema only for me and
that I would also know which exact Community to go to to get that value of the dark room and the communing around
it to do and and I think you guys both mentioned it it’s festivals where we allow that to happen and so I think
festivals are extremely important but I think they too are also experiencing this disruption so it’s we’re in the
middle of it and um trying to ride that wave um and follow where it’s going to come out on the other
side um maybe I’d be interested to hear your thoughts a little bit about you know the film Shirley that you know was
recently released and it and it’s intering for a couple of reasons one firstly her story is yeah it was an
extraordinary um story but it’s also one that you would think initially probably
is is its audience is going to be more more focused on a domestic rather than an international audience um you know
I’ve I had seen the documentary actually about sh which we actually had at the festival um a couple of years ago but
I’d love to just hear a little bit about how that you know came together and what the assessment was made you know to to
make that kind of a movie yeah I mean I think so much of what does bring us the
new and bring us the exciting things where people feel inspired in in this sort of participant like category come
from just the artistic passion of individuals right and so you know long ago I don’t even know exactly when you
know Regina King felt really passionate about Shirley and telling Shirley’s story and she went to the estate and got
the rights and she and her sister Raina began sort of imagining how to execute on that and as her sort of star quotient
continued to rise in Hollywood you know proba even prior to my coming to participant um John Ridley became
involved as a writer then writer director producer and participant became involved just believing in the power of
just Shirley’s Legacy first of all like how can we amplify that Legacy of you know the first black congresswoman the
first black woman to run a presidential campaign for a major party and everything that Shirley’s Legacy of
unbought and unbossed I think is so indicative of what is needed in politics right now that we knew that
that that if that could hit the culture if that could just that we could build impact around that and sort of amplify
her Legacy and also um you know really kind of build on the backs of something
incredibly High wattage from the package point of view um you know just a lot of
waves of impact that we tend to focus on and so you know what what the long
period of development that that John and Raina and Regina and Ana McLaren and Elizabeth Haggard participant and you
know all the partners that they brought on board it was really put together heavily packaged cast um and with the
great help of ICM at the time um you know really at one of those kind of
undeniable and I think is a is a lesson that in this category you have to you
know most often build these packages of talent and story and polish and polish
and polish of script after polish and polish and polish um to really then make
this undeniable beautiful thing that um many people in the marketplace can can
really respond to and so we were fortunate we took it out as a preby uh when it was packaged and ready to go and
we really thought that um you know we would have multiple business models interested in that and Netflix won the
day and participant acted as studio and so you know the model that participant although you know we’re a couple days
from the beginning of our wind down has always been to active studio and and and enable artists to co-own rights and have
that reversion down the road and so we were able to build deal with Netflix that um had those factors to it and then
the creatives and our impact teams and all that could kind of get to work on planning this great recent release on
March 22nd I believe um and you know you can go to shirley1 1972. and really see about ways to get
involved in the focus of the impact Campaign which is really to say that the stories of Shirley um and her long
fighting for gender and racial equity and supporting underserved communities is that we if we can shine her Legacy in
key institutions and teach more about how and who she was and how she did that that just the expansion of that Legacy
and the knowledge of her Legacy can really then imbue those characteristics in activism and in um you know and in
audiences everywhere um so I encourage everyone to to do that so I’m not sure if I got the the nail in the um on the
head there and answering your questions but but that’s how it came together that’s how we brought it to Market and you know the interesting thing that I’ll
say because what you ask the question around audiences I think we’ve been pleasantly surprised you know we have we
have had many many um projects as Reena has I’m sure too and Eddie has as well
um with Netflix and so there are data points that you do get and Netflix is
starting to be much more open and much more transparent about the data performance and things like that and so it is performing in certain
International Pockets kind of be in to the Delight of everyone at Netflix and to all of us and I think you know was
doing extremely well in the early St stage of its launch um domestically and
in global pockets and of course I think it makes sense uh one of the overperforming uh International territories if I recall correctly was
Africa and the continent of Africa and so you know I think that’s just incredible that that is happening um and
you know it allows us to sort of highlight uh something that I find an interesting Dynamic happening today and
I’m sure your audience would be kind of acknowledging of is that there’s so many
women of color who are are so proximate to so many important issues of our time
and that are being Fierce um leaders in politics and being first in what they’re
doing like Shirley was and so we were really able to sort of Hit the nerve on that kind of trend that I just hope
continues and um but I’m just I’m glad you asked the question because I do think it’s relevant um uh to the
specific way that this Festival is built and so uh great to talk about but Shirley 1972. if you want to know more
thank you um let me turn to to both of you now and kind of talk about you know
the the importance of of film festivals um you know when I think back how I
built my own practice as a lawyer it was from going to Sundance and Toronto and
toan um and and they were seen as major venues and ways to to sell films and
Screen them in in in front of of of live audiences um Co obviously had a huge
impact on that where a number of festivals either kind of cancelled their
festivals or they had virtual festivals for for a number of years and then some
of those have now become hybrid festivals where there’s you know a limited number of screenings that take
place in front of a live audience and then people can watch them you know remotely and I’m really you know curious
as to both of your thoughts as to you know our Film Festival still you know
relevant um for um you know selling films today I mean Reena maybe we’ll you
know we’ll we’ll we’ll start with you I mean they’re relevant because
there are opportunities to to to actually promote a film um somebody’s
dog and it’s not mine so it’s good I’m so sorry about the dogs I can um I mean film festivals are
relevant they’re relevant to get reaction response reviews to create a noise as we call you know that just to
highlight them and and I you know it it’s not the same as it used to
be perhaps um because of you know what we’ve been going through meaning they’ve
been trying different things like these online you know screenings which I think are G are awful by the way and I think
they will go away and I think they pretty much have um as far as I know but I think they’re they’re very relevant
and very important to us um but I think that they’re going to have
to perhaps balance a little bit more of uh the the discovery with the commercial
and I say that and I don’t mean commercial like you know I mean commercial sellable marketable because
we need the buyers to still attend we need them to pay attention we need them to show up and we need and the
marketplace is telling us what is needed to get people to go to the movies which
is going to be a more commercially minded film so it’s important to have
festivals and it’s important for the festivals to actually pay attention to what they’re programming and I’m not
saying that they should program anything they don’t like or they don’t feel you know merits being in that Festival but I
do think that there’s a little bit of a balance because the movie business is exactly that it’s a business I mean it
costs money to make these films and so you have to figure out a way to to you know get your money back or get the
investors money back and so there has to be a little bit of a balance and the reason I say that also is that we need
films to to sell to Distributors we we need a 24s and Neons and roadsides and
Sony Classics and all of the Distributors and and some of the new ones um you know to step up and um and
and buy films out of these festivals to sustain the festival experience I do think it’s also there’s invariably at
Festival there’s like one or two things that were sleepers that no one was really paying attention to and all of a
sudden you put them in a room full of people and and the response is just something that you weren’t anticipating
and that’s you know when we’re in that business that’s all what we want is to kind of get that excitement in the room
to get you know buyers bidding against each other and I think that’s one of the things you lose about having something
that’s online because you know that the buyer’s actually multitasking they’re watching it on a computer screen they’re
doing a whole bunch of things and the filmmakers who you know put their heart and soul and money into it aren’t
getting I think you know their their Awards I mean it’s interesting Lis on
the documentary side I often think that festivals are sometimes the place where
actually documentaries do get seen but it is also a place where you know they get sold I mean how how how important do
you think documentaries are you know from a festival perspective as
well I mean I think think you know festivals are incredibly increasingly important and equally as challenged as a
sort of specialty space at large so you know I agree with Reena there and I
think that the the festivals that have been experimenting with virtual have been experimenting within that kind of
interface because I think you have the the live audience and the passionate audience that shows up to a festival
obviously you have the business side that shows up to a festival but you have passionate audiences that come out and see films as well and then you have this
opportunity to create a moment around a festival and so buyers are really when
they have um projects features or documentaries are really considering to use festivals for marketing launches in
different ways in the past couple of years uh postco than they had previously
in the past because you I think generally feels like you have that one bite at the Apple to kind of get attention and so do you want the it to
go to a festival quietly or do you want to make a big explosion at a festival and immediately get into release or
quickly get into release right so you know and and may December might be a good one to wonder about but I think you
know the virtual festival or you know it used to be before that there were satellites like Sundance would travel to
different cities with a subset of the program or you know have a festival in the summer in Downtown LA and one in
this city you know and so forth and trying to kind of lift the brand to get a global audience I don’t think you can
do that and be relevant globally if you don’t have some sort of virtual component and so I see Festival starting
to experiment with how do we take care of the business side that is vital and Reena is 2000% right like we can’t just
throw caution to the wind and let buyers just sort of say well I can see all these movies at festivals so I don’t
need to support them earlier in their life um and be sort of opportunistic I’ll pick up those three films and I’ll
take the check please with my espresso right you have to sort of make the festival a healthy part of the ecosystem
and the relationship with the business is absolutely crucial to do that and I do think that markets like can which
have the festival and the market um are increasingly more important for the
business side but the virtual Festival if you’re a festival you know team you
have to raise sponsorship dollars to bring these things and everything is more expensive postco not just
production and post but Gathering people in small parts of communities and
whether in the mountains or you know in in wherever the case may be and
expecting the business to travel with increasing travel cost to these locations I think is equally as
challenging and so the virtual Festival is a big question about how it’s going to evolve and I think that festivals are
trying to listen to the business about what’s wrong and going wrong with it and how to adapt and I think they need to
keep doing that but I think above all festivals have to understand they are
the ultimate experiential moment um for Cinema and like the music
business experiential drives consumption and so festivals have to and the
consumption side and the business side have to figure out a better relationship um that allows the festival to lift
content that needs to be lifted to audiences and have that moment where they’re discovered but then figure out
how that Discovery and the story about what’s discovered actually inur to the benefit of the wider audience could see
it and that is unfortunately very very uneven right now across festivals
because each group is dealing with it on their own without really coming together and so you know call to action March on
Washington film festival get all Festival programmers together to solve these problems because I think each
Festival team of programmers and business people are trying to solve it on their own and I feel like there might be a listening more macro that they
could all work towards really helping the space that they are a very important component in if they were to kind of
collude a little bit and and figure that out together but I still think it’s a shared experience that the reason why
the festival so important is exactly what you said lisel before is that you know like we had a feature dock that you
know we we raised the financing on and finished it and took it to Sundance
called will and Harper and that experience in the room was magnetic and
and and it was just something that you might not get because you might sell it as we did to a streamer in this case for
a very specific reason and for the right reason it’s in the right home but that
experience alone sometimes especially for films that that are whether comedy or emotional and you want that shared
experience we may not get it so the importance of the festival is sometimes
for the filmmakers because the film may not get distribution the way they intended it to so I think that’s a very
important part of the festival experience too I really do yeah I I I I agree I mean it’s funny I I think
there’s a couple of things about festivals that are relevant one you know in smaller films if if you can kind of
pick up some kind of an award um it gives you at least a little bit of help
with a marketing hook on some of these smaller films if you can say you know winner of the Sundance Film F Festival
jeury prize there’s a benefit to that but I think going to the point that you just made and even though this topic is
about panels about distribution I think over the the you know 38 39 years I’ve
been going to festivals I think one of the things that’s important about a festival is for a filmmaker it’s
allowing buyers in the marketplace to see who they are and it may be that the
film they have at the festival is not the most commercial film but that ability to get in front of the buyers
who can see someone who’s clearly a talented director there is a real value I I think to that yeah Discovery
Discovery yeah absolutely Reena um one of the things that I I think you know is
always a decision for producers is you know do you try and prell you know your
movie or do you try and play for the upside and and I think that decision’s
probably more challenging today just because the challenges in the distribution Market I mean if you
pre-sell a film to a streamer it’s pretty much for a flat dollar amount and
the film could be massively successful and you’ve capped your upside but you’ve got to balance that against the risk of
actually not getting distribution as well so just kind of your thoughts on on that would be great I mean you know
sometimes we like the idea of pre-selling but it’s not so easy to pre-sell either right you have to have
all those elements in place because as we said in the beginning the our theatrical distribution companies are
challenged right now still on you know getting audiences into theaters so um
you know it we really it really depends if it’s a very domestic driven film then we are going to need that Us
distribution in place prior to if we can yeah if it’s a you know internationally driven as well or at least it’s it’s
equally um we may take the risk because the numbers make sense so you can ride the upside possibly um in selling it
later uh sometimes we don’t have a choice it’s how it’s how you know you’re not able to pre-sell the film then you
actually pull back the budget maybe and figure out alternative ways to shoot it and and you set it up independently
which is the international sales model soft money model and equity and and so
we sometimes will go out to Studios with a or streamers with uh you know a budget
that is really more ideal for the film making team and if they don’t want to
buy it we always say you’ll have a second bite of the Apple because we’re going to make this film anyway we’re
just going to we’re going to shift and you’re going to Pivot and you’re going to have to figure out an alternative way to get the film made and you may have to
shoot it in Germany or shoot it in UK where there’s a good tax break or figure out a way you know to consolidate your
scenes and and and so we work you know diligently with the film making teams to
figure out alternative ways to get movies made which is what our business really is outside of pre-selling or
going to a studio or streamer um it feels like in each decade
the way in which consumers are are watching and absorbing content is
changing um of late you know the streaming platform seem to be a very strong presence um any thoughts from
either of you of um what you might see as changing Trends the next five 10
years are we going to see immersive experiences come into the landscape and a filmmaker starting to think you know
about that there are a number of financiers I think that are developing kind of
multiple bites at the Apple experiential types of opportunities around the IP that they’re de developing
as fil um I think Netflix has gotten into the experiential space building you
know kind of Bridgerton experience that you can go um to locations and they
again back to the festivals as experiential I think postco most of all we’ve realized that people do want to be
sharing experiences which I do think will eventually Trend back positive to the theatrical space but I do think
there is a trend on figuring out who are the right experiential producers makers
and or you know companies that can really build that out I’ve we’ve seen it happen in the art world where you can go
have the basat or the Banksy experience and some of those aren’t even you know licensed by the artists and or um uh you
know there there’s a lot of I think excitement about what that has done to
the art world and so I think um that will continue and it’s not for
everything um but it allows for those multiple layers of exploitation um and possibly new Revenue
models where these films can get financed in ways that give Reena and her team at UTA and other people like that
putting things together in space more Revenue opportunities to kind of go into
Discovery artist-led content and I think it’s exciting it feels like it’s going to take a very long time I think the
other Trend that I’m excited about is that there are a number of you know kind of more audience focused specific
streaming companies that are really gaining traction globally and have been
around for a long time companies like movie and I got an email recently from a
a platform called sooner and as you mentioned I’m on The Advisory Board of Som TV which is a wine lovers content
platform and so I think that the the streaming platforms that can really focus on an audience and an audience
love of XY y andz be it’s specialty Cinema or in that case wine um or perhaps documentaries or perhaps social
justice documentaries I’ve been noticing that there are financiers who you know and sometimes family offices who support
um film finance that are saying hey I have this really important film to me that didn’t really have an opportunity
to break into the traditional Marketplace in a way that is satisfying to the artists and the community
involved in in making this important work so I’m going to go out and build Capac capacity in streaming for this and
other films like this and so I think that Trend will hopefully create more sort of direct marketable subscrip
subscription Health in certain categories um wouldn’t be surprised if there’s a faith-based one and things
like that so you know that that to me is exciting I I refuse to think that space
is dead and I think that those kinds of tactics can really be the ancillary value that allows them to be
experiential in dark rooms in cinemas or in cinematic like um
rims Reena any last words before we uh wrap up I mean uh Le will put it very
succinctly I’m still a supporter of the theatrical experience I am hopeful uh
that I really am I remain optimistic that this wave will end and that we can get the young people back in the Audi
back in the theaters and I think we saw it this weekend with Michael show Walter’s film the idea of you um I think
they’re crave it I think it’s not there I think we have to get them into the theater right that that next Generation
those next two generations they need to so maybe it’s as you say maybe it’s more inspirational Happy Feelgood something
that brings them into the theater so they can walk out and be smiling instead of maybe not smiling but I do think that
there’s I think that there’s um there’s hope I I I’m not sure and I do think
it’s going to be a lot of marketing um Savvy and figuring out how to reach them
and how to create the noise that we know we need to get them in but but I am a big uh I I am a big Optimist with
respect to the theater and the theatrical experience not dying you know
for me I I still like the experience of going to the theater and sitting in an audience I think to me that social
interaction is is great and today when you can go to a movie and go with friends and then go have a glass of wine
and talk about it afterwards to me that’s what you know it it should be well look I think not used to it they’re
just not used to it because they had five years of no movies and theaters it’s it’s true back we got to make it
more special than ever before that’s the key yeah yeah exactly Eddie vican is a
producer and co-founder of side unseen pictures an independent production and financing company Eddie and his partner
Julia Le leev produced American Society of magical Negroes directed by firsttime
filmmaker Kobe Libby and produced the 2023 sundan grand jury award-winning
project A1 directed by a Rockwell site unseen also premiered the multi-part
Paramount documentary film series Willie Nelson and family at Sundance in
2023 in 2020 HBO released sidon film directed by Ki Finley’s bad education
starring Hugh Jackman and Allison Jenny which received an Emy award for outstanding television movie Eddie’s
prior credits include the 2020 genre bending hor Sati bad hair from writer
Justin Simeon Kent Jones’s Diane the Sundance hit and special jury prize
winning Monsters and Men other producing credits include Lake Bells inner World
Michael polish is Big Sir and Rob Zombies 31 Eddie started his career in
2004 at CN Bigelow’s Paramount based production company first light and was
the director of development at Sony based Avenue pictures where amongst other projects he worked on closer and
angels in America um Eddie thank you so much for joining us this evening especially you
know all the way from Tokyo where I know you’re in the middle of production so we we really appreciate you finding the
time um perhaps you could start with a brief description of of how your company
sidon scene came to existence and and talk about what was the original business plan for the company you know
in terms of you know production when you set it up sure um well thank you for having me I’m thrilled to be here um so
sight unseen came together um when I met
my partner Julia leev on a movie that I was producing and Julie at the time had
owned a company called code red and her um her business model was financier
producer I was just producing movies at the time and we were introduced
um I I honestly can’t remember if it was Ram Taylor or Jessica Lacy but one of those one of those people introduced us
and uh we met on a movie called the dinner which Orin mman directed and we ended up making together and Julie um
Julie came in and financed that movie for me and as we were putting that movie together we simultaneously started
putting another movie together called State like sleep and we we had a
fantastic working relationship uh we we both kind of were eager to build
something that was different than what I was doing and then what she was doing and we decided to join forces and start
sight unseen um the company initially was meant to do a little bit of
everything so Finance movies produce I came from a producer background Julie came from a financier producer
background um we wanted to do film and television and
also we had you know we had we were very Ambi ious and so we talked about having
uh a podcast division we talked about um doing some other things as well but the focus was obviously film TV um at the
time and so our goal was to finance you know
three to five pictures a year um in different budget ranges um Finance
development so we could do our best to control the IP and and the process um
and and um um and do the same and do the same in television specifically finan IP
obviously well not obviously but we weren’t planning on financing uh television at the time but we were we
were planning on financing um financing movies um that’s kind of how we got
started um you know we’ve just heard obviously from Reena and lethal and some of the challenges they’ve seen occurring
in our industry you know over the last five to 10 years um you know Finding
distribution for independent films I think has become more challenging um particularly you know as it relates to
you know theatrical distribution but we’d love to hear you know your thoughts on the challenges you know you faced in
your company trying to procure you know financing and distribution you know for your own mov sure so you know I think
initially the goal was to finance movies so that we can control the process the
whole way through and I think just the the market the marketplace evolving
and changing the world changing economics uh uh changing and with with
with our own like Finance year and and the things that they wanted to do and didn’t want to do and and and the
process for Julie and I like ultimately we decided that financing movies was not for us to be candid like it’s not it
wasn’t a part of the business that we fully wanted to lean into and we felt like we were more you know we were more
tried and true rooted in the creative and we liked the producing more and we
we felt like toggling and wearing both hats was really hard for us um and um
because creative Ruled The Roost and you know that’s not to say that we were
making we were always our goal was always to make things in a very fiscal respons responsible way and and and and
obviously be budget conscious and aware of of of like what movies cost and what we were spending and
and and and how we were making them but but we found for us that that was a
better path forward but part of that obviously was because like distribution was such a challenge and it
was it was really a crapshoot like you finance a movie and you know you you
work really hard in it and you believe it turns out well and you can take it to a market and the market doesn’t respond
to it and you know you can find yourself in a pretty pretty precarious financial
situation um whether it’s on one movie or a whole bunch of movies and sometimes
they work but more often than that we found in our experience that they were you know even if we were coming out of
movies even if we were breaking even on movies that didn’t feel like a financial
win um and so I think Reena and um leel probably
spoke to this but obviously the marketplace has become very tough and distribution is very challenging now
there’s a lot of different Avenues to distribute films these days that even 10 years ago didn’t exist so that’s that’s
definely a good thing but you know um it it it definitely affected Us in
how we approached our business it affected us and understanding what it meant to make a movie independently
versus what it meant to make a movie with a with a distributor early days right to try to go set it up um
uh you know um knowing that at a certain budget level there were only a handful
of places that could take you out of the movie and so you know the the risk profile was incredibly high and from a
financial perspective the ROI was not you know it wasn’t what we wanted it to
be you know I would say on a on a consistent basis and unless you’re
churning enough right unless you’re investing in enough films so that you’re so Diversified that like you know two or
three will take you out of the five or six that maybe don’t work and you know
um I don’t know that the model worked for us and so we we needed to kind of
rejigger that part of our business um which we did and and I’m glad we did and I think ultimately it’s worked out for
us but the the marketplace is really challenging and finding distribution and Theatrical distribution is incredibly
challenging now obviously you know postco like there was the pre-co and then there’s postco and then you know we
just had the strikes and and and and and just globally in general what’s
happening in the world has obviously changed theatrical experience for for a
lot of people also how people consume content and do they want to go out and
spend that money to see a movie do they want to see it in another way shape or form on a device or at home or whatever
it may be so I think all of that has led to you know theatrical distribution being obviously incredibly challenged I
think there’s a lot of people who say it’s coming back and it’s coming back with you know in a big way
and I’m I’m one of the people who feels hopeful about it I I have to say like I
think I think even some of the smaller independent films over the last couple years that have broken through um
there’s like if something resonates then it finds an audience and and there is
there is um There’s an opportunity to find theatrical distribution and have movies succeed part of the challenge too
and I’m being a little bit long-winded so I apologize but part of the challenge too is like the theatrical window now has changed so much right and so like
you know with places with certain Distributors and most I would say you have you have a short window and so
sometimes movies need time to build an audience and what ends up happening is those movies just don’t get the time
they need right Word of Mouth movies there used to be a a platform
release that that gave movies an opportunity to like build an audience over three or four or five weeks um and
now it feels like three weeks is your window and then it drops on the platform
and that’s it now that’s most movies it’s not all movies of course there’s the you know the outliers the the
Barbies and the oppenheimer’s and the dunes and you know the big big Studio these big budget Studio films
that um they’re obvious they have a different trajectory but yeah it’s it’s it’s it’s very
challenging very challenging when I when I think back on you know some of the deals that we’ve been involved in you
know over the years um you know you’ve kind of done two different kind of
models you know in in bad education you know you finan the movie and then you know sold it at a festival and your
current film um you know you you you pre pre-sold but maybe talk a little bit
about the experience of of both of those p pictures to give a a cross you know section
of options well bad education was one of those movies that candidly was
like full disclosure was crazy in that it was a very it was a it was a big
movie to finance independently you know it was it was it was a big number and so
we were lucky that we had Craig and a sales agent and and granted I think we
made a great film but we were lucky that we were able to come out of that movie um but there was only you know a few
places that could get us out of it and so the experience of it was of making the movie was fantastic the experience
of selling the movie was unbelievably challenging and trying because you know you have millions and millions and
millions of dollars at risk and that could affect the future of your company it could you know it’s it’s it was a
huge huge swing for us um it was a bit you know for us creatively it was a fantas ftic swing and from a profile
perspective for the company it was great and you know um the cast was incredible and you know we Lov the elements around
it and and we we were involved early days so we we really had some ownership over it um and and felt that um but but
it was um it was a very trying trying and challenging experience with us and I I mean I don’t even know how many
sleepless nights you you lost Craig over it I mean like working I mean hundreds
of hours on this movie it was same um compared to this where you know we
developed we we paid to develop a script you know this Hikari came in and the writer director of the movie rental
family which we’re working on now came into the office she pitched us an idea we loved it we were super we were all in
all on board right away um we we took the time to develop that idea we we paid
for the find the development of that and then we put a package around it and then we took it out and we had interest from
you know five different companies and we had a very like we had a great negotiation and we ultimately made a
decision that we thought was best for the film and best for our filmmaker and that’s how it landed here and it’s it’s
a different to it’s obviously a different process working with a studio developing with a studio um that comes
with its own set of unique challenges but um but given where we are and given
when I say where we are I mean the market place and you know given the needs of the film like we felt that you
know having that that level of financial support from the studio having the creative support and and having a studio
like search light which is just you know as good as it gets um support the movie
and and the way they have was we all going to be huge bonuses and value ad
for us and our filmmaker and so for us it was a no-brainer and and most of our
business I’ll say candid these days is is is lean me into that like we still have a couple things that will probably
go into the independent Marketplace but I think we generally are trying to set
up most of our projects with our distributor friends and our buyer friends because we we like knowing a we
like that commitment early days we like the investment not just the financial investment but the emotional investment
we like knowing who’s marketing our films who’s doing the publicity on our movies you know taking movies out to a
festival these days is is a challenge like even if they sell um you know it’s
it’s like trying to pinpoint what the right number is to make a movie at and
understand how the marketplace is going to respond to it also the other big factor that I’m sure leel and um and
Reena mentioned is that there used to be a time where we had tremendous coverage out of foreign like we had a safeta um
meaning like the foreign value of the film equal x right and so we had a of
what we thought we could get domestically and then we could back into a budget number it’s really hard I think
to predict now with with real accuracy what that safety net looks like
internationally and So you you’re it feels like a lot of the time you’re working without a net so if you’re
financing movies that’s something that you have to consider and so now you have to be really really really disciplined
and fiscally responsible and how you’re making independent films and for what budget you’re making them for and so
that end up that ends up obviously affecting the the end product and the end result and so having a studio who
can say then I can if if you can get that piece of talent we’re willing to pay for that
piece of talent right because that enhances the value of the film for us um that that makes that changes a lot of
things it makes a big difference and so there’s yeah go ahead sir you know I was gonna say look it’s it’s interesting
because you know the producers perspective um on how to set up a movie
um is very different than anybody else because at the end of the day you’re the ones who are taking that risk you know
the actor’s going to get paid the director’s going to get paid and you’re the one who at the end of the day you
know has those sleepless nights and so you you find yourself with this conflict
of you know if I pre-sell my movie that I’m somewhat capping my upside right but
how how is it better just to kind of know that I’ve got my distribution partner I know I can count on my
producing fees out of the budget or you know in with the benefit of hindsight
you know you had Hugh Jackman and Alison jany on bad education if you were doing it today and admittedly the Market’s
different would you now kind of think okay I would much rather pre-sell and even if I’m giving up some of the upside
um having that level of certainty is just something worth having for me a th% yes and it’s not just for
me candidly it’s for our filmmakers in a big way it’s for our filmmakers for filmmaker to to to spend God knows how
many years of their lives on this project right thinking about it and working on it and before it even came to
us right and then spending another 18 months developing it and then another
you know year and a half making it it’s like it’s such a time commitment it’s such a huge investment and then they
take it to market and not know how it’s going to turn out that level of stress and anxiety and um it just like we
talked a lot about that idea with Hikari and her representation before we before
we decided that this was the path we’re going to take it was like was that a trajectory and was that a plan that
would work would that work for her would that work for this movie um for us like
we the upside is is wonderful when you get there it’s amazing it’s incredible
and it could be financially unbelievably fruitful for all involved it’s such a rare occurrence I mean if you look at
the F past few festivals and you look at what movie sell for there’s a handful of movies that sell for more than they’re
made and there’s and and only a couple of those sell for a number that’s really
like oh my God we just you know we made a movie for 10 and we sold it for 20 we made made a movie for you know 12 or 13
and we sold it for 20 22 like to make a movie for 10 and to sell it for 11 uh or
12 and eing it out is again like it’s not a financial win and so for us it’s
like it has to be a really specific type of film like for example we have something on the Slate now that we think
is an unbelievably original original and smart genre idea it’s a small horror
film and I’m sure that we could get it set up but it’s one of these movies that feels like it could really break out and
find an audience and because it could be made for I would say sub4 million which
is not really in our business model but we love this writer director and we love this idea that she came and pitched us
so we we we decided to jump in and do it because it’s being made for such a small number I don’t want to say that’s a
small number it’s a lot of money but but comparatively speaking to other things like because it’s it it feels like it’s
a it’s it’s um it’s it’s a reasonable siiz budget we are we are having serious
conversations about potentially doing it independently and not taking it out to the market because then you really do
then there really isn’t an upside but on on on movies that are you know in the 15
to 30 range budget wise I don’t know for me like finding a
distributor um finding you know a partner like Focus or search light or a24 new line or
whomever it is I think that having that safety net is more important than the
upside I think knowing that you know from a prodori perspective like there’s
a fee in the budget and you’re going to get that fee and that’s fine uh the director is going to get the days they
need and the time to make the movie so they don’t have to compromise the creative Integrity of the vision of what it is they’re trying to do and Achieve
um and it it makes a difference I just I think that the independent Marketplace
is so volatile these days that it’s really hard to predict and yeah of
course if you have a great package and you have movie stars in your movie and you know again but those are those are
the rare instances that’s that’s not always the case so for me I think if it
was today we would definitely be making bad education at a studio and I imagine we would have no shortage of offers on
it and it and everybody would win and everybody would get what they wanted and you remember the negotiation with the
the representation of Hugh’s representation and how challenging that was right because they have a client
that’s used to be making X who’s who’s taking a lower substantially lower fee to make this movie because he believes
in this in the creative he believes in the filmmaker he loves the project etc etc but but in that instance you’re also
as a producer being forced to give up a tremendous amount in order to get someone like that right
so it’s yeah it’s um It’s Tricky but I I think I would if if it was us I would
lean into for movies like that I would certainly lean into finding a dist distribution partner early days I think
I think the mindset of Distributors has changed I mean it used to be that okay
we need to have a certain amount of content that we’re going to release every year and and today you know I
think you look at the studio World um and aart from you know some exceptions
most of the major studios are in the franchise business and you know big budget films and spending you know a
massive amount of money in PNA but the truth of the matter is um even those big budget movies um where they’re spending
you know hundred million in marketing cost I mean 20 years ago the number of
films that were doing $100 million at the at the box office domestically was quite a large number of films yeah yeah
today the number of films that kind of get anywhere close to that has changed
and and you know it’s a handful of movies it it it really is and then you know you look at the streaming side and
you know there was a period of time where um you know they were buying because they just
wanted to fill the platform and have choices content and and yeah the economics were were a factor but less so
than they are today and I think today Netflix Amazon Apple um they’re not
buying as much content as as no they’re much more disciplined and so you know going into a
festival today and think well I’ve got a great movie um you don’t have you know
that certainty I mean what what are your thoughts in terms of
the relevance of film festivals today are they still important for you from a
producers perspective I mean me look I think they’ll always be
relevant and I think they become they’re relevant in a in a bunch of different ways a I think from an awards
prestigious perspective studios are 365 24 hours a day now there’s not a window
there used to be like a window in a time frame now it’s all year round so movies that launch at Sundance go and awards
Journeys obviously can Toronto torite Etc so I think that’s important for for
the studios I think from an independent uh film perspective like you have to
find a you have to go somewhere to sell your movies right and the festivals
still I think probably provide the best platform for most movies to do that the
problem is is or the challenge is I think there’s festivals that from a
sales perspective feel more relevant um than others and so it also depends on
which festival your movie’s going to to like are you taking a sales title
to to Sundance versus versus um South by
or or or Tribeca versus another Festival are you taking a sales title to Toronto
um it depends on the festival and it’s that specific also like there’s can
which is a festival but it’s also a Marketplace so that’s a different that’s a different situation where you’re
starting like every day now you’re going to start seeing in the next seven days announcements of movies that are launching a can sales companies are
taking movies um taking hot you know hot package announced um uh to sell the
movies to sell to do some International pre-sales with the probably the real hope of like finding an over worldwide
deal for a lot of these movies especially with certain level of talent so it depends on the festival but I will
still say that there was a time where you would take movies to Sundance and the majority
of the films will sell I will say that’s not the case anymore the last few years the majority of the films have not sold
or have sold for such um for for for for just such a loss that it’s it’s hard to
even quantify like that like the budget compared to what what the what the sales
number is it’s it’s but but there’s no other place to do it right you can’t you
can’t create that atmosphere at a screening at at one of the agencies or
at a screening room in Los Angeles like that’s part of what what these festivals used to provide is they used to they
would screen films and you can you could sit in those screenings and you could just feel the energy in the room and you
could see how people reacted to it and you could tell that a movie was going to go sell for x or y like you could feel
what was happening that’s obviously not the world that we’re living in anymore but still they have like where do these
movies go to sell there’s no other platform to do it in my opinion where
they can actually if we’re if we’re talking about financially solely financially strictly financially try to
come out of these movies The other thing is these are these are places to launch movies right so a lot of Distributors
now and buyer and Studios they’re launching their movies at the festival right because it is a 365 cycle now um
you know like we’ve we launched a thousand one at Sunday so Rel launched American Society at Sundance and the the
studio felt like those that that Festival was a perfect launching pad for
a movie that they wanted to release in the spring um so I do think there’s
value in the festival still I think I think the sales component has
changed quite a bit like that’s without question and I think
movies are struggling to find homes out of festivals which is scary because I don’t know where else they would go to
find homes I also think that you know especially at a place like sundan you’ve
got all of the buyers there who are you know apart from those who want to go skiing in the middle of the day when the snow’s good but they’re there really to
see films and so having that captive audience of buyers is a is a is a huge
benefit because otherwise even when you kind of set up a screening in LA in New York it’s a real effort still to get
people to come you can’t recr it that’s what I saying you cannot recreate that I agree 100% the other thing for us is
that we get to discover new new new new storytellers right new new filmmakers new writers and
like for us that’s extremely important because we’re always going to work we we always want to build our stable and like
as much as we want to work with experienced filmmakers we we always want to find the next like who’s going to be
the next insert you know your favorite filmmaker here and so I think it’s a
place and an opportunity for these filmmakers to build their brand and uh
and get out into the world in a way so that the community can really see them and so sometimes the movies are great
and even if they don’t sell or even if they sell to a small distributor it’s still for the filmmaker it’s still a win
again there’s different there’s different lanes that we’re living in right are we living in the producing Lane the financing Lane the filmmaker
Lane like there’s value you can extract in all of these different areas and for all of these different individuals it’s
just what is your goal if if you’re a film Finance year and you’re taking A10 million movie to
Sundance you’re sweating it out because even if your movie is great that’s a big number and to get out of that movie you
need not 10 you need what do you need 12 right between your sales fees and other fee like you need more than 10 so if the
movie sells for seven then you’ve just lost $3 million that’s not a good thing
um if you’re a producer it’s something else if you’re a director writer director it’s something else so I think
it depends on on who it is and what the what this what the situation is but I I
do think at the end of the day like the festivals they definitely are
important but I think they play maybe a little bit of a different role they did than they did 10 years ago it’s
different it’s evolved um you know o over the course of my own career and representing you know films at festivals
uh you know sometimes I’ve represented producers without an agent and sometimes you know with an agent talk can you talk
a little bit about the experience of you know working with an agent at Festival how does it work you know what are the
decisions that you take into consideration deciding whether to bring somebody in or not sure so generally our
experience in work in our experience in working with agencies it’s not just an agent but it’s an agency on festivals
usually comes it’s usually established almost very early in the process right like if it’s an independent film um
usually the agencies represent a component of the film so maybe they’ll represent us as the producers maybe
they’ll represent the Writ or director um depending on the level of talent uh who it is they’ll represent that that
person or or a group of people and so usually they’re very much a part of um
and are brought into the process of setting up the film and selling the film and so all the agencies obviously like
Reena Reena you know Reena runs the the the I’m not I’m not even sure what it’s
called anymore the UTA the it’s the packaging group it’s the independent group um it’s the Sales Group whatever it is but like you know she she oversees
that and so she along with all her other you know uh duties at UTA but but she
you know there they they help us strategize how to take something out
into the market and they look at a finished film and then they help identify with the producers what is what
do we think is the best place for this and like so we you know they help us apply to the festivals and then we go
through that process and then and then they’re really the ones who are communicating with the buyers and
negotiating along with us but negotiating with the festivals about the the time slot that you want and and and
the the the the theater that you want and and all of those things and so they they definitely play a big part I think
in in helping us do it and selling the movie I mean I think it’s important to
have someone outside of yourself do that because you know uh
just just the Insight they have with buyers and even if even if we have those relationships the producer buyer
relationship is certainly different than the agent buyer relationship so just the leverage and leaning on and and
information flow and all of those things are incredibly important and and knowing what else is happening in the
marketplace and and and knowing about all the other projects that are screening and and and and what other
buyers are doing and how to play people off each other like when when when you
get to that point of the negotiation I think it’s incredibly valuable to have someone whether it’s an agent or you
know someone like yourself Craig represent uh represent a finance year if
we’re talking about Finance year specifically in that process um also a lot of Finance years are just super
green they’re super green so instincts and intuition and all of
that that’s great but Hollywood is its own Planet it’s its own world the way it works is it’s hard to explain and you
have to live in it and you have to work in it and you have to really be a part of that fabric to really I think
understand in in in in a substantive way like what’s happening on a daily basis minute to minute hour to hour dayto day
and so when you’re at a festival having someone who understands what’s going on and understands the market and and it
and really is just like a hub of of of of all this information is is is usually
very valuable so for me like
I I could never imagine like if we’re making an independent film not to have our lawyer and an agency who’s working
on our behalf to sell it the the place where it gets I think challenging um is
obviously like in any business there’s always politics and there’s always agendas and that’s that’s where it gets
tricky right it’s the marriage of the it’s it’s the Synergy right is everyone does everybody want the same thing or do
people want different things for different people who are involved in the film so like Craig if you represent us
as a finance here your responsibility is obviously to to to
find your money but at the end of the day like you got to get our money back right and hopefully make some money but
but you got to get our money back um and so um that might not align with you know
someone you’re correting the movie with whose agenda is to find the best distributor for the home because they
want their actor they believe that this is a tour to force performance and they believe their actor is going to go on an awards run and so that’s what they care
more about so you might be in a situation where a studio is offering you you know I don’t know let’s say the budget of the movie was 10 million and
you have somebody offering you eight million and creatively they’re probably the best path for the movie but you have
someone else offering you 14 million and maybe creatively and from a Prestige
perspective they’re not the best but your Finance seers are actually going to make some money not only they’re going to come out they’re going to profit uh
that’s a those are difficult conversations which I know you’ve been a part of many many um swe um and that’s
where it becomes tricky but I think you do have to have you have to have someone representing you so they can they can
have those conversations otherwise you’re put in an impossible situation more often than not
look I I I think in today’s marketplace with the challenge and finding
distribution um you know you have to go in with the best and strongest team
possible and and sometimes people think well gief if I’m paying you know my lawyer x% and the agent x% then you know
I’m giving away 15% or 20% or whatever it is I’m giving Which to me I think is actually the wrong analysis because
really what you have is assess what is the value of your team to me it’s like if you’re going to go sell your house
sure you you could try and sell it yourself and not pay a 6% AG in commission but at the end of the day
going to an established um real estate agent who knows how to connect to a market I think it’s on balance really
important and I think the other thing that’s useful is these people are speaking to the buyers every day 365
days a year and so they have a great sense of what the buyer is is looking
for there’re so they’ve already got that line of um you know communication and I
think they’re also so I I I think on balance I I think it is is is the best
thing I I I think a lot of the time people are penny wise and pound foolish and I think there’s a lot of people that
come to Hollywood and there’s a lot of people who are successful in their Industries and they’re like I know how
to do this so I can do all of this and the reality is I think this business has proven over and over and continues to do
so that like whatever works anywhere else in the
world generally doesn’t always work here it just doesn’t and there’s a a lot of times there’s not even a rhyme reason to
it like why something resonates and why it doesn’t but like the information is King and is the is the most important
thing and like you said and like I said earlier to have that information and to have someone who who who knows what’s
going on is is really important and it’s unfortunate because I do think that we find a lot of the time that people are
probably driven by the wrong things and and and people should trust their
instincts and it’s gets them to wherever it gets them to in their lives that’s great I threw out my instincts and I
trust Craig and I trust my agent who has my best interest at heart and for me
that that’s the safety net that we always needed and and and I thank God
because if we didn’t I don’t know where we would be honestly like if if if if you guys weren’t across bad
education the the economic profile in that movie would have been very
different like it just there is there’s no way around it and the the you know
the institutional knowledge that you have like the the information and the knowledge and the experience that you
have like you couldn’t put a price on it it’s it’s it’s just it’s it’s it gets all of your clients
through through their experiences and so I think that um I agree I think people
think they can do listen there’s always one or two that find a way and break through but generally speaking I think
having someone who represents you and your interest is
important when when you look back um at your career to date um and thinking from
the perspective our AUD for our audience for you know young emerging writers directors you know makers um if you had
any advice for them about um you know what you might um what you might do
differently or what things that they should think about as they try and get their films finan and seek distribution
what what would you share with them I
mean I would say that that’s such a good question there’s so many things to say it’s G to take an
hour to answer um no I would say, um surround yourself with people who you
trust surround yourself with people who um who whose
agendas are aligned with yours surround yourself with people who understand the
vision and the thing that you’re trying to do I think is supremely important be reasonable understand
people will say don’t compromise I will say that the best filmmakers and in the world and and
and I think storytellers know that making movies is about a thousand
compromises and they that that could mean a thousand different things but but
but don’t give up your vision but also be willing to have difficult conversations be willing to be be
understanding of of of where the marketplace is and what’s happening and and you know a lot of the time
firsttime writer directors they come to us and and they have these fantastic ideas and they’re great and we read
these things and you know we we we kind of give them our assessment on like we think given the marketplace and the
challenges of this and challeng that we think we live in this box and sometimes that’s not what they want to hear they
want 10 million or 12 million or 20 million for their first movie Sometimes you can get it and we’ve gotten that for
first-time filmmakers we’ve gotten big numbers um but it but it it was always
it always came from a reasonable place it always came from a place of really talking it through making sure we had a
plan do the work like really be prepared be overly prepared make sure that people
really understand your vision and what you’re trying to do and why why they can
justify giving you x amount of money to make your movie big or small you know
two million one million half a million or 30 million it doesn’t matter um I
think it’s about doing the work and I think people that work really hard have a clear concise idea of what
it is they want to do and can communicate that um to people they can find a path forward it’s not easy it’s
industry of no so you have to remember that but you have to keep persevering I
mean perseverance and grit like to me are the the things that stand out I
think in the most or stand out the most for me with like the filmmakers that that we love these are these are people
who have continuously persevered and had tremendous grit and toughness to be able to get through um get through the
process and find find a way to get that first thing done and don’t be afraid to
talk to anyone and everyone pick up the phone do whatever you need to do call if
somebody knows somebody who know somebody ask them um you have to do
everything you can to try to find a path forward if it’s something that you’re really passionate about and it’s this is
what you want to do that’s the way to do it you know one of the things that I always tell people about the industry
that I always think is so interesting is that like there’s no handbook there’s no guide book there there’s no how do I
become a producer or how do I become a filmmaker or how do I become a writer like you kind of just do it and and
there’s a lot of poking around in the dark and then you find something and then you find something else and that
leads to something else and one success begets in another and like before you know it like you’re in a flow
and I I I realize that that’s not like for young people to hear that it’s it’s
a little bit maybe frustrating because it’s not like what are the steps
I’m still figuring it out every day every day I’m still figuring it out every day every movie is new every every
project is different and so I think that there’s something to be said for
continuing to push forward owering through there’s something to be said for not being afraid of
um of talking to people and getting in touch with people and and pulling all
the favors you can pull and doing everything you can and knowing and and the other thing is like for me like I’m
not above anything like I’ve produced a lot of movies big small you know I think
we’re a relatively prolific company in the amount of work that we do um our
movies some work some don’t but they’re made at a level and a quality and they’re substantive and their nature
they’re about something they move a conversation they start a conversation um and if I have to go buy water for
craft service I do it I’m just saying like do the work roll up your sleeves do
the work be prepared the filmmakers that we work with up to this point they are so prepared and they’re so ready um and
they’re also okay admitting the things they don’t know but they’re always
collaborative um they’re lovely treat people kindly treat people with respect and you’ll find your path forward I I
mean the the the The Talented the great projects The Talented
filmmakers they find a way to get through they do and and there’s so many different ways to do it and there’s so
many different ways to get seen and there’s so many different festivals and there’s so many different opportunities to make things um and like I said be
willing to roll up your sleeves and do the work if you have a great idea for a short film that’s great like figure it out if you can’t find the half a million
dollars to do it be creative and let’s figure out a way to do it for 100 thousand like figure it out like do that
work we’ve all had to do it and we all continue to do it and that’s the way you persevere in that’s the way you get through it’s about perseverance and grit
Talent is great it only gets you so far you got to fight the fight every day well we are now sadly out of time but I
do uh want to thank all of our panelists tonight for giving up their own time to share valuable in information to our
audience of aspiring filmmakers you all shared such incredibly valuable
information which I know that our audience appreciated as as mentioned at the beginning of the session this will
be our last panel discussion for 2024 um but I look forward to hopefully
seeing you all again the same time next year to address whatever new challenges face us to keep getting the stories out
there as some of you may know if you looked at my bi bio I serve on the Advisory board for the March on
Washington film festival which is an incredibly important Festival telling important stories about the Civil Rights
Movement from both a historical and contemporary point of view given everything that’s going on in the world
today in the United States these stories are as relevant today as they were in the 60s and for more information on the
festival please check out the website at marchon Washington Fest film fest.org
for more information for those aspiring filmmakers out there we all understand
and appreciate the challenges in getting your projects made but I will leave you with this thought that if you don’t
dream then it won’t happen and if you don’t try it it will never become a reality so thank again to all of our
amazing panelists and to our audience we thank you for watching um and we don’t
take it for granted and so on that note and in the words of Sergeant Phil Esther
house from the great TV series Hill Street Blues let’s all be careful out there good night and good luck and thank
you
