Calling all writers, directors, and producers! Moderated by Craig Emanuel at Ryan Murphy Productions, the March on Washington Film Festival’s Mind Your Movie Business Workshop Series is a set of monthly workshops designed to support the career success of student and emerging filmmakers!
Moderator: Craig Emanuel, Executive – Ryan Murphy Productions
Panelists
- Peter Chelsom, Director, The Space Between Us
- Susanne Scheel, Casting Director, Past Lives
- Cathy Schulman, Producer, The Woman King
Transcript:
the woman King crash all the light we
cannot see these are just some of the top film credits of the movie industry
professionals you’re about to hear from greetings I’m isaar Bay artistic
director of the March on Washington film festival Welcome to our annual
three-part film Workshop series mind your movie business our panel of experts
will share Insider tips and hard one lessons on developing your craft in
various aspects of the film industry this month our topic is casting
and now to introduce our esteemed speakers is the host of mind your movie
business entertainment attorney and executive with Ryan Murphy Productions
Craig Emmanuel good evening everyone I am so excited to
be able to again host a series of panel discussions this year that we hope will be of value to emerging writers
directors actors and producers this is our fourth year of Hosting these discussions and I am
extremely delighted and honored tonight that we have three wonderful people who are going to discuss issues around the
casting of movies and television projects before we dive into the topic let me give you a brief description and
introduction to our panel ists Suzanne before I introduce you I just wanted to
say that I was so happy to read yesterday that casting directors are finally going to get the recognition at
the Oscars that they so richly deserve so many of the Great cast that we get to enjoy on TV and movie projects are a
result of the incredible work that you and your colleagues do and so congratulations for this long overdue
recognition by way of background suzan is a New York is casting director with the Bachelor of Science in film and
television from Boston University during the course of her highly successful career suzan has won three casting
Society of America Aros awards for excellence in casting and has been nominated for 10 more over the course of
her career she has collaborated with some incredible Visionary individuals including Joel and Ethel Cohen Francis
mcdor Barry levenson George Clooney Cassie lemons Ryan Murphy sh Davis Peter
Chelson Seline song Patrick Wilson and Whitney white just to name a few she has
worked for with some of the industry’s top casting directors including the last 11 years the well with the well-known
Ellen chenowith as a casting director suzan’s debut film The Wife cast
included Glenn Close Jonathan price Christian Slater and Elizabeth mcgaven
more recently so Suzanne co-hosted Seline song’s wonderful mov movie Past
lives which premiered at the Sundance Film Festival and has won numerous Awards including best film at the AFI
and Gotham Awards as well as numerous Awards this past weekend and has been
nominated for two Academy Awards and is certainly one of my favorite films this
year Suzanne thank you so much for agreeing to share your experience with us on the panel
today thank you um I have had the pleasure of knowing Kathy dman I think
for close to 30 years and was lucky enough to represent her as a lawyer for quite a few of these Kathy is an academy
award-winning producer and is the president and CEO of well entertainment a film and television production company
committed to producing content that appeals to diverse audiences with an emphasis on women and girls well as a
leading content supplier in produced for major motion picture studios networks and streaming services Kathy is
currently in post production on Amazon’s romantic dramedy the idea revie starring an Hathaway to be released in May
2024 she most recently produced the EP epic action drama the woman King
starring Viola Davis released on Sony by Sony triar in 2022 grossing over a
hundred million at the global box office Kathy also holds a top 10 AFI
certificate for crash for which she won the best picture n Oscar in 20
06 before funding well Kathy served as the head of productions for STX entertainment was the president of
artist Productions group as well as the president of manderlay pictures over her
career Kathy has overseen a large number of films including Martin scorsese’s Gangs of New York Richard linklater’s
Bernie and Lisa cholodenko the kids are all right Kathy was the president of
women and film from 2007 to 2018 has been a two decade long board
member of film independent and has served as a council member on the producers Guild of America Kathy we so
appreciate having you on our panel so happy to be here thanks for having me um
last but by no means least I’m thrilled to have on our panel my longtime friend
and former client Peter Chelson Peter is a highly acclaimed British film director
and writer his Hollywood films include Serendipity starring John Cusack and
Kate beckin sale sh we Don starring Richard Gear and Jennifer Lopez the mighty starring Sharon Stone and James
gandal feny and the space between us starring Gary Oldman Beyond his us
commercial film making Peter has always kept his feet firmly in the alternate or more art housee genres having directed
films such as hear my song in 1991 when I first met Peter funny bones
starring Oliver Platt and Jerry Lewis Hector in the search for happiness starring Christopher Plumber Simon Peg
Rosman Pike Jean Renault Stellan scard and Tony Colette Peter who now speaks
fluent Italian has recently made two films in Italy including security and
more recently a sudden case of Christmas starring Danny DeVito and Andy McDow I
would say of all of Peter’s movies it is fair to say that my son’s favorite movie
that Peter directed was the Hannah Montana movie in 2009 starring Miley
silus who my son got to meet and take photos of which for a teenager was a
pretty cool thing and I can honestly say it was certainly far more interesting for him than meeting George Clooney
inste of Michael Clayton so Peter thank you for that my great pleasure thank you
so let’s let’s dive in um Kathy um I want to start with you a as a
producer what’s the point in time when you find yourself engaging
you know a casting director is in the development phase before you have financing or once you have a financier
on distributor on board well honestly there seem to be sort of two phases of casting there’s
the star casting which is very um interconnected to the process of
building and financing a movie and then there’s the the the overall casting of
the movie that happens much later in the process and generally posts there being a commitment to making the movie so you
know the reality is that that that the way that you know kind of casting Works in and in Hollywood is not really a
meritocracy the first bits of casting are based on um you know packaging as we
call it uh actors into a project that will lend quote unquote value to the
process of creating a business plan or an economically viable movie or
television show later on we do the part of casting that
you know would be much more intuitive which is filling all the roles with the very best people to play them the theory
is that in putting the star casting in at the beginning you’re also obviously you know and and trying to get the very
best people for the role but you have a limited pool because you’re working with people who um create an economic V you
know viability uh to the to the Venture itself and do you use different casting
directors on different projects or do you try and work with you know the same person over and over again I love
working with different people and different projects and and and normally you know first of all many times a
director um will have you know a preference in terms of which casting director to work with and sometimes it’s
the project itself that might dictate somebody who has a specialty for example on my last movie where it was a it it
it’s a movie that that involves a boy band it was important to utilize a
casting director you know who had a lot of experience in building movies that
are driven by music and Music Creation and would know the kind of actors who can sing and dance and so it may have it
may have a lot to do it could also have to do with setting ethnicity um all sorts of things could have you know
might link up with where a casting director has a particular facility or has had experience in a certain
area um and is there a material difference between I know you work in
both film and television is is there a different process in casting television versus
features you know it gets more and more similar over time I think the mark Marketplace is dictating the same actors
you know the same valuations of actors for both marketplaces that said you know
in television if it’s ongoing um it’s it tends to be a different pool of people
in a different kind of process because when you’re looking to cast people that can remain involved in a show for at
least a year or maybe multiple years that may be a different pool of people who are willing to work on let’s say a
limited kind of a television show where they could fit in the shooting of a of a
movie in between you know the shooting of a show in between other movies so the
process is slightly different and the pool is slightly different in ongoing television terrific paa let me let me
turn to you um as a director at what point in the process do you you know
like to start working you know with the casting director and I guess there’s an ancillary question to that who generally
chooses the casting director is it the producer is it the director how how does that process work it it honestly
varies um I’m not just saying this but suzan has become my favorite casting
director and she was by way of example she was introduced to me by the
producers um I wanted to be very open-minded about who was to be the
casting director I I like surprises I like working with new
people um it’s it’s always great to have a casting director who understands how I
work with actors um so part of the answer to a question sometimes a project comes with
an actor attached and sometimes and that can be a bad or a good thing depending on the actor and sometimes I’m
definitely part of the process in answer to your question about casting directors as early as possible
because um the only way to say this is I don’t get out much so I need help in
terms of showing me people that I should be aware of
um I think does that answer the question mostly crate yeah no it does I mean I
always wonder sometimes going back to a little bit of what Kathy said you know maybe in certain genres or particular
you know kinds of movies um you know people might use different casting directors I mean
sometimes you might have films that shoot in multiple jurisdictions around the world and I wasn’t sure if if the
casting director you do use you know covers all those different jur ditions
or that well that person might have a relationship in another country where you’re also looking for particular
roles no you need an overseer you need you need a casting director who really stays involved regardless of what he or
she is required to do contractually I just think it’s crucial
that a casting director oversees all of it I mean I was constantly sending suzan
auditions for you know that I received for tiny part um obscure Italian names people who’d
never acted before I mean I just love that input really and then in terms of
genre Craig the only thing I can say is it’s all the same to me you know film
directing is film directing good acting is good acting um the film I’ve just
done actually with Suzanne is a Christmas comedy I suppose the other
film that I did here in Italy that you mentioned security has not got a laugh in it it’s a dark
Thriller but to me the process is always the same and I think it’s because I hate not hate that’s a little
too strong but I don’t like evident acting I like actors who play very close
to home I tend to I I I try to cast
people I like and then I celebrate who they are Kathy knows this about me I
mean Kathy and I have known each other forever and um um she knows that I I like there to
be an accessibility to to the actors in a film I it’s almost like it’s what some
people would say what makes a star or doesn’t make a star is that you feel you know a star um as opposed to admire his
or her acting so there’s to me there’s no difference in genre I would never
think of changing casting director because of the genre and yes to repeat myself it helps to
have a cting director who just seems to know your taste and know how you like to work Peter um talk a little bit about
your process for for picking for picking cast and and and and what you look for I
mean I I assume that particularly one of the issues that you and and producers like Kathy face is that you know in
general there’s a finite amount of money available to cast all of the roles and on some basis you kind of have to be
careful that you don’t allocate so much money to one particular individual that
all of a sudden you’re short changed with having the ability to cast you know the other roles so talk a little bit
about your process and and maybe comment on the financial issues especially in
the independent Market where again budgets are are somewhat tight particularly at this time well Kathy is
going to be better at answering this second part of that question I think in terms of the first part
I that’s a silly banal comment I like stars I there’s a reason why they’re
stars and because of the way I work I like the fact that there’s something charismatic and
appealing about the as stars therefore I’m always prepared to
tailor the script and in some ways the film to suit someone who doesn’t say to
casting directors in fact I always say to casting directors look this is my brief but give me your greatest hits in
other words I I’d so much rather have really like who’s my kind of actor and
rewrite a bit and tailor to suit that person I mean uh just to finish that the
answer Kathy and I worked on the film that you mentioned the space and I had a long history with Gary
Olman and we had been trying to work together for many many years we had a couple of s that you would have been
aware of Craig that didn’t quite happen a long time ago and once you’ve cast someone like Gary you start to you you
tailor things and you rewrite to suit um but Kathy’s going to be much better at
answering um the financial implications and the allocation of budget you know
Kathy should answer that so Kathy you know turning back to you and you’ve worked both on the studio side as well
as on the independent side um you know bud in is a real um issue um so how do
you address that fact I mean as someone who was a lawyer for many many years I often found I represented cast where by
the time they were being cast in the role you hear this line from The Producers saying well unfortunately you
know this is all we have left you know in the budget for the role so maybe just talk a little bit about how you address
that issue yeah it’s a very um serious and significant issue so we try to create
um we try to create a schedule for parody and and and what I mean by that
is that I as a producer have to be able to defend to people like you Craig and
to agents why an actor should be paid a certain amount of money on a certain uh
project and so what I try to do is come up with a narrative that makes some
sense for example if there’s a major Motion Picture star who let’s say is making $5 million to work for the Run of
show but then there’s another star who would work another let’s say major Motion Picture star who would work for
half of that I try to create a scenario where the amount of money is determined
by the amount of time spent on set that’s one of the mechanisms we can use to create some kind of a reasonable
narrative um as it regards the fact that people will be making different amounts of money another thing that we can do is
base it on precedent how many movies has somebody been starred in or starred in
or how many times have they had credit for example above the title or below the title do they have they merited or or
achieved yet um a main titles credit versus an end titles credit and so what
I try to do is look at the entire casting breakdown for people who are working Beyond day players but for
anybody who has an ongoing part and come up with some kind of um a sensible and
fair narrative and financial program so that when we’re making an offer we can
defend why in the context of this particular movie a person would make X or Y and I mentioned this before and I
bring it up again every movie is its own business plan so every movie is individual and every movie or television
show by the way is governed by certain economics so one way to make um
representatives and lawyers aware of why we’re structuring certain fees in
certain ways is to is to explain the business plan of the movie the overall budget the way that it’s going to be
made the amount of money that will be above the line which means you know for cast and directors and writers versus
below the line for the making of the movie and what it is we’re dividing up and why we’ve created the schematic or
the strategy for how we’re going to do it um you know in a perfect world I think we’d like to pay everybody more
there’s no producer or or writer or director who wouldn’t want to pay actors
more and pay everybody on the movie more but we have to defend um our choices on the basis of the economics of that
business plan well s sadly too often than not you know it’s the producer and
often the director when there’s just not enough money to cast the roles that find themselves compromising their own fees
because they’ve been on the project the the longest and they want to see it it it get made so I I feel your I feel your
pain and and yours as well Peter um Suzanne turning to you um I’m interested
to know what what made you to decide to become a casting director and and how
did you first get involved sure um I went to film school at Boston
University um and at the time there was really three focuses you could be a writer director or in production like a
very gen General production track um and I wasn’t quite happy with any of them so
I went to my adviser at the time and said you know here’s what I love about film making and storytelling and all of
it and here’s what I don’t love um or things I just don’t think I’m very good at in the process and he looked at my
list for about two seconds and he said well that’s casting and I said well what’s that because it just wasn’t
something that was taught or spoken about at the time um and it really to my
complete Delight I was like I can paid to do that like that’s what I’ve done in my head my entire life and what I really
love to do and I love the work that actors do but I knew I didn’t want to be an actor myself um so I was trying to
find an Avenue for all of that love of Storytelling and acting and performance and actors but not actually be an actor
um so this was just the perfect fit and I never looked back so about 20 years
old just said this is what I’m doing and found internships in Boston and for
extras casting and things and and then eventually moved to LA for a brief period of time and started work there
and then I’ve been in New York uh about 12 years now I mean presumably it takes
a certain amount of time to develop relationships with agents and managers
and producers and actually even get knowledge of who are are the actors out
there I mean how how do you even start that process it’s just uh on the actress you
just watch and take in anything you can find so in New York I go to the theater all the time you know I I can count on
one hand and when I’ve regretted watching a certain piece because I said well I didn’t you know get anything out of that for this that or the other um
it’s so it’s just taking in all of the information the relationships on the
agents and managers like that is something that you know develops over time and I found for me it has to be in
a very genuine relationship ship way like you would at any relationship is you get to know each other you get to
know each other’s tastes how each other likes to work and I I guess coming into
the profession I didn’t realize how uh important that would be and how much time of that would be spent because you
do need the agents and managers very much to get your your films made and and
and get them to pay attention to scripts that you’re really excited about and once they get to know you and decide
that they like your taste trust your taste you know the best compliment you can get is when I send a script you know
they’re going to be willing to read it just simply because I sent it um and so you you have to be very careful with
what you choose to work on because you want it it’s you want to be known that you know for your taste and and not uh
compromise that um and then I you know make jokes things like the covid pandemic happens and the strikes happen
and we all have to work and eat so sometimes you you do take on projects that maybe aren’t your finest moments um
but in general uh the most you know if I love love love a script I don’t really
you know and I trust the people making it um then I just go all in regardless
of budget and what I might make on it or or what that might be is I just if I if it’s a story I want to be a part of
telling I just dive in I mean I was actually gonna ask that question is you
know what what are the things that you take into consideration when you’re going to you know cast the movie I
assuma not always just you know economically driv because ultimately you know this becomes a reflection um I mean
of of who you are do do you find um I mean how difficult is if a young
firsttime filmmaker comes along that doesn’t have a track record would you rather work with people that you kind of
have seen their work product or do you work with firsttime directors um to go back a few steps to
to what you said it’s it’s almost never an economical decision not for me anyway uh it’s just not you know how that works
in my brain but no it is it’s like it’s it’s my art too and I look at it that it’s like I’m one of the artists putting
this together um so you want it to be reflective of that and be very proud of
that um I certainly work with first-time filmmakers um you know with the hope
they have something cinematic to show me um for me and also then to just get the
agents and the actors engaged and excited about it they need to you know even if they’ve done a commercial or a
short film or or something that I can show like their visual eye and their their Vision literally for the for the
project and for the film that’s ideal and then and if they truly this is their first thing out of the gate that can be
quite tricky and it’s like pushing a boulder up the hill but usually you know we find a way um one one last question
before we move on um without getting into detailed specific can you talk just a little bit about how the contractual
relationship Works between a casting director and a production is is it a fixed amount is it on a weekly basis um
I know sometimes people defer a proportion of their fees do you pay a certain amount upfront when the project
may not be green lit if you could just give a brief overview I know that would be helpful to our audience sure so it’s
um it’s broken into the phases that Kathy mentioned earlier where um where you’re doing a Consulting phase where
you’re attaching the leads and this is I guess would be more for on the film side um so Consulting would be like a flat
fee over a given number of weeks with the understanding that hopefully by the end of that contract you’ve um attached
or cast at least you know one or two of the main parts that then would hopefully result in either the film being greenlit
or the project being Greenlight or um they feel the filmmakers are feel they’re able to take it out to finance
years at that point or take get out to pre-sales and things um and then eventually you go into an active casting
which is once it’s greenlit once it’s funded then it’s a weekly fee um for a
set number of weeks to just fill out the rest of the cast all the way so I typically handle anybody that speaks on
camera I handle and then in some instances even some really strongly featured extras or non-speaking roles if
it’s important to the director that those really be proper actors and not just you know good a good look or a good
face or somebody that you think would be at the bus stop or whatever it might be um but somebody that really can carry a
moment or have a reaction or of some sort um so there’s the Consulting phase flat fee number of weeks months and then
it eventually once it’s green lit Finance transitions into active casting usually anywhere on a film it’s
typically 8 to 12 weeks I would say um and then a series is much different that
you’re on usually you go onto your weekly almost right away because they’re they’re generally financed from the top
um and then you just depending on the contract you may stay on for the entire
shoot like the for the entirety of the principal photography period um moving
to um you know the audition process um you know how does that work as a casting
director do you and the producer and the director agree upon a list of people
that you know they want you to reach out to you do you put together there a list of potential available cast members and
then they call the list and say look we’d like you to you know see check the
availability and and talk to those people how does that process work uh so for the leads it’s it’s a
series of like Avail lists and then maybe sending you links to demo materials and things or pointing the the
director in say you know I’d really watch this film to really get a good idea of why they’d be good for this part
um um for audition I guess I don’t we don’t typically like ask the director
producer ahead of time like is it uh or say who this is who I’m going to reach
out to because that’s part of the work I’m I’m presenting to them so I create my own list and and for auditions I
present you know people that I’ve thought of and certainly if they say oh can you please include so and so I
certainly do that but it’s it’s mostly generated from initially from my ideas and then we collaborate and they add in
they add in and and um in that way um
and very certainly if it’s an actor that’s not at an audition level that would be you know someone not as well
known that again if the director has an idea of like please make sure to include these people great but many of those are
from you know they’re much smaller parts so they would be auditioning and and actors that wouldn’t be as known that
you could just look at a demo wheel or look at their previous work and feel like you could just offer it to them um
I think that answered no that’s that’s sorry um turning you
know to both Kathy and and and Peter as as producers and directors um I mean do you find that you
want all of the actors including the lead actors to audition for a part or
are there people today that you’ve worked with that you know that you just be happy to have them you know in in
your movie I mean pet do you want to start and then Kathy you weigh in sure
yes I mean um some actors won’t audition um you know you get a list if you’re
sitting doing live auditions as opposed to remote auditions you’ll get a list a checklist that says will read will not
read Etc um I have to say and I don’t know
what other directors are like but when people suggest actors to me to play especially
leading roles I usually go to them on chat shows and talk shows and interviews and red carpet interviews because
I’m I I I trust that they can act I’m just very interested in who they
are and whether I like them sorry but it’s it’s just because I that’s my
starting point really um and then the thing I would add to
that is when I’m sitting doing real auditions um you know face to face not
remote um I think I ask for more time than most directors I I come from a very
boringly respectable British theater background and acting and and all that and
I I I I like to find the actor inside someone I I think I take more time I
think you have to be patient you have to do it with affection and uh I tend to if
most directors are you know five minutes per actor I’m probably 10 uh and those who do live sessions with me know that
uh sometimes of the 10 minutes you’re spending nine humoring them because you knew after 10 seconds they were
absolutely not right but honestly most of the time if you work carefully and
strip everything away and make them feel most of all very comfortable very comfortable you get some nice surprises
does that help Kathy what what’s what’s your experience
well I agree with everything that Peter just said the reality of the business is that certain people you know will and
certain people won’t read and that’s usually more determined by their representatives I think than the actors
because oftentimes the actors will say God I would have been happy to meet or would have been happy to read but but I
guess that the part that I wish we could do slightly differently is that you know I think that what happens
from because of the fact that that that the is system prevents a natural process
where directors and actors are always allowed to communicate we miss out on
transitions that that certain actors may be wanting to make from genre to genre
or from tone to tone and so we get into a sort of typ casting problem where we
keep putting the same people in the same kinds of roles and then two things happen the actors get bored of it and
the audience gets bored of it and then suddenly you’ve created a scenario that makes people that that be actually
becomes a burden to the actor where they’re carrying so much um so many similar parts that they become less and
less believable in something fresh and I think in the same way that we as audience members like to see movies of
all different kinds of types and shows of all different kind of types I think that artists actors would like to be
able to act in very many different kinds of ways and sometimes play be the villain and sometimes be the hero and
sometimes be funny and sometimes not but the system prevents this sort of natural course of
of of creative communication between the directors and the actors that then
railroads us over time and I wish we could unravel that in one way or another so I guess I’m answering just to say
that the facts of how it works and the effectiveness of how it works aren’t necessarily the same in my mind and
Kathy when it comes to uh making offers to mjor town today do you find that you
have to be willing to make a pay play offer before they’ll even consider the project or has that largely gone away in
the independent world today I think it all has to do with the vi viability of the management team of
the movie so if if the PE if if I think at this point for me if I’m making
offers you know on on an independent film um and I say that you know there’s
a certain security to the process and how I believe the movie is going to get made they’re going to take me seriously because I’ve worked on you know I’ve
produced over 35 movies that said I think that if a producer is you know
kind of more emerging that they still get caught in this you know uh we want a financial proposal or
some kind of guarantee that what you’re promising is really going to happen so I think it’s a bit of a mixed bag um that
said I think there are less and less payer playay offers being made overall because I think that a lot of the
financiers have stopped playing that game themselves and they just don’t want to do it because the truth
is actors and their representatives work their way out of P playay
commitments all the time and what’s the recourse I don’t mean to get into sort
of an advanced level of analysis here because I know we’re speaking to a lot of people on this panel who are just
sort of learning but the reality is you know holding cast together
against their will is not something that really can be done if they don’t want it to be done because what are you going to
do threaten to sue a movie star so I think that the reality is that you know
we all have to be a little bit more flexible but unfortunately there’s been a lot less committing going on so actors
are being overcommitted for many many different parts on many different projects and it’s a bit of a
free-for-all whereas when I came up in all of this once somebody said they would do a movie or a show they were in
so I guess I’m answering this by saying that you know just to kind of Circle the wagon that there are less PIR
play offers being demanded but they’re also less useful overall in a culture
and in a custom and practice that has degenerated a bit bit into being sort of
a casting free-for-all I’d be curious to see what our what Suzanne thinks about this but um I feel like the amount of
moving and grooving and changing that happens um in a process is is non-stop
it it doesn’t feel like once you’ve got something set it I mean it’s it’s an interesting time
because you know when you read the trades over the last couple of days they’re talking about the large number
of actors who are sitting around who don’t have jobs at the moment and and
some of that I think is probably because of the Readjustment that’s taking place
in our industry both in the feature space and the television space where I think in television in particular it’s
just been too much production and I think the streaming platform and the studios today are a lot more focused on
quality rather than you know quantity and I think that’s leaving I think people in all aspects of our industry a
little bit more challenged so one might think that there are more actors looking
for work who perhaps are are showing a little bit more flexibility of roles that you know they might not other take
but Suzanne what are your thoughts on that um I think it’s it’s also predic
particularly tricky right now because we’re Post strike and the only things that I um I’m quite busy at the moment
but I’m quite busy because I had things that were set up to go that were disrupted by the strike so if things
weren’t set up to go new things have not quite picked up yet um so it’s still
quantity-wise quite low um and I still have I have many casting colleagues still out of work um agents are more
persistent than I’ve ever seen before and in you know using tactics I really
don’t prefer um and and I get it it’s it’s been rough I mean we we did CO as
an industry together and it was incredibly hard and challenging and then you know not even three years later we
have a historic strike so it’s it’s been challenging and I think yes I’ve heard a
lot from Agents saying well this is you know maybe they said no to me pre-strike and now they’re saying well this is Post
strike so we have a different answer now so uh the people just really looking and
wanting to get back to work and I think once people get that first job back then everyone will St start to calm down a
little bit and once the summer movies and the new series and things really get going hopefully you know June July
people will calm it all settle and kind of go back into its normal Rhythm I hope
so that it’s you know people get back to work and one of my absolute top three things in my job that
I love love love is I get to give actors their dream jobs and it’s like I have wonderful jobs to offer right now but
there’s still so few compared to how many actors actually need work so every
day I get to make a call and say you know you get a job it’s it’s my favorite part one of my favorite Parts but like
what suzan yeah what Suzanne and Peter are dealing with is sort of a downstream problem to what I’m dealing with you
know which is basically that there’s so so much um complication in in in the marketplace post stri post strikes and
and as we still adjust to to what streaming really means that um there’s a lot of there’s
there’s a failure to commit into a lot of different projects you know and and there’s also a lot of you know initial
commitments and change decisions and it’s not because everybody’s suddenly gone crazy it’s because we still haven’t
figured out the overall economics of a Marketplace that’s driven by streaming versus by um traditional TV both
domestically and internationally and also by um theatrical film distributions
so what ends up happening is um as as somebody like me is having a
harder time putting you know movies and shows on the map with security then that
makes it harder for the director to get secured into the job and it makes it harder for the casting director to have
the job and then therefore that all reflects back to how many people are being casted into which parts so it’s not it’s coming from the the very top
corporate levels as we try to readjust to a changing um business
plan just to pick up on something um Suzanne said um which I really can
relate to is it’s it’s really lovely to be the casting director Andor the
director who changes someone’s career in the sense that someone’s been hovering on becoming a lead or you know we had a
couple of examples of that Suzanne you you showed me Jose Zuniga for example
and it was just lovely the way you said oh you know he’s been so good for so many years he’s right on the edge it
would be lovely to see him get this break because he’s going to be playing Andy mcdow’s husband some same size role
as her similarly with Danny DeVito’s daughter Lucy DeVito which we decided
was not just completely at Dan DeVito’s daughter as his daughter but it was
giving Lucy something that she deserved and as you hopefully saw the film last night was was the correct decision
because the warmth the and the chemistry that comes from a father and a daughter playing father and a daughter you know
it’s lovely to to find those areas where it gets blurred or we can not adhere to
rigidity from as as Kathy said the corporate influence of it all it’s lovely to
promote deserve those jumps isn’t it yes
um one last question you about the audition process I I I’m assuming today
both logistical reasons and for economic reasons a lot more auditions take place
in Zoom rather than person um and and I’m curious you know for for each of you
um do you feel like you’re losing something in that process and is there
are there certain roles or things where you really feel you need to be in a room to have that one on-one you know contact
with the actor or actress and Peter maybe you know we start with
you oh it’s very depressing to have to admit that very often I would make my
decision within 10 seconds of an audition sorry to say and it’s
just that we’re talking about the know getting lots of auditions in remotely
and and that you just and it’s not so much to do with their acting Talent it’s
just whether they’re right or not right for the part
um but it is we we I you know I was saying before that I usually ask for
more time with actors if I’m doing a whole day of of face tof face interviews
it is sad that we’ve lost that because I may well be wrong the problem is you’re
looking at them on camera and it’s a you know I’ve only ever directed for Cinema I’ve never directed anything even I must
be one of the only people who’ve never directed anything for television or streaming you know but it’s a visual
medium and someone comes out there and as a director who’s always been a photographer all my life and Craig
you’re a photographer you understand this you know there is what I call the inescapable um the inescapable what is
it I use the inescapable power of the still photograph of someone it’s whether they’re right or not despite their
acting in other words is however hard or you know however hard they try to act there’s an inescapable innate quality to
that person that’s fair and it’s not fair and it implies that the actor
doesn’t have control over it and I’m afraid that’s the truth sometimes just it’s just one of those
things Kathy what what’s what’s your
experience you muted muted sorry
sorry what’s my experience with which part of it would you well the challenges of kind of conducting auditions over
Zoom as opposed to you know to being in person oh um I yeah I think I I I guess
I haven’t really seen it’s not so much the zoom process it’s the self-taping that I
think has was really dangerous for a while and I think if I understand it correctly and Suzanne might be able to
answer this that that the re sag strike led to some more Progressive rules around that it it wasn’t so bad I
don’t love you know Zoom meetings because it’s never as natural as it is in in in person but what was really
tricky was this whole chapter we were going through that started with covid and then became sort of a I think a
money saving Venture which was to ask actors to self tape and the quality of how people can self tape and the lack of
um sort of equality that creates in the process this um I found to be really
damaging to actors you know during that course maybe Suzanne you can you can speak to what’s going on with this weird
Universe of self taping yes uh so the say the do say contract I I was
frankly I wish they would have pushed it a bit further I think a lot of casting people were nervous that um what it
would require of us and that we wouldn’t be protective of all the sudden we’re being told kind of how to do our casting
process uh which I never read it as that I read it always as just protection of the actor and so what it resulted in is
that um if you put out uh a self-tape request you must provide um a either
inperson or a zoom audition live option um so but the language is very vague so
how different offices have decided to do it um really is varied and some have decided not to do it at all um but
the in a perfect world what I would love to do is because it is to me so actor
focused like yes I need to get what I need to get out of it but I also want them to do their absolute best work so
in a perfect world I would say to an actor I’d love for you to read for this part here is the inperson option in New
York here’s the zoom link option and here is the self tape option and you pick it’s arest choice because I’d love
for you to do your best work and at some point you will have to meet them and you’ll have to do a session with with them but that first one out the gate if
they prefer to do a self tape let them do it like if that is how they are comfortable and they’re good at it and
they’ve got a good system going for themselves then fantastic if they prefer Zoom let’s do zoom and and the inperson
part is only tricky still because in my experience producers and uh don’t want
to build that into the budget or they’re or uh networks or Studios or whatever level you’re working at don’t build it
into the budget from the beginning to give us space to do that and most casting directors had to give up their
offices during covid so we no longer have a space where we can do it easily um a lot of great Studios that you can
rent by the hour have popped up all you know in the major cities where we need them so there is a way to do it but it’s
it’s a matter of um the the producers and the production being willing to pay
for it um and so it’s something I as soon as I come on board I say we got to build this in because at some point we
will need it at some point it will serve us well and I just want to know that we have the resources to do it when it
becomes necessary um I would say for leads and big supporting Zoom is incredibly
effective it’s incredibly I I wouldn’t say I’ve I’ve made like one a big mistake or been really tricked um or
just not gotten what I needed because we were over Zoom versus live as soon as you go into the Ensemble or the smaller
parts I push like heck to get those in person because you’re looking at Heights
and body shapes and voices and looks and if you’re doing a big Ensemble of people who are going to be on the screen
together in certain shots but then they’re going to be in smaller groups in other shots you cannot get those people
confused especially if they’re of like you know similar age and things you have to make sure you’re really putting
together an ensemble that feels unique and and individuals feel unique enough that they’re not it’s not going to get
confusing um yeah I think that anwers I was just going to say that I had such an
interesting experience with what exactly what you just said during Co because we cast in a TV show I was doing we cast
two sisters um you know and one was meant to be three years older than the other and
when the the young women showed up the younger one was towering taller than the
older one um which hadn’t been identifiable you know based on uh Zoom
meetings and and apparently also the related to an outdated you know fact
sheet on a growing child that was all you know and then suddenly we were faced with this situation that was really
peculiar and we tried to actually switch the two parts but then there wasn’t the maturity level younger one you know to
play the older so we we just had to sort of build in wow you’ve grown fast and all these kinds of things which was
super awkward because they were playing real people who weren’t of those sizes in real life um but anyway I that I was
disagreeing with you that I think that that the more that can be done you know IRL the better it really is and I also
think don’t you agree that it’s it’s kind of a disadvantage that back to the self taping it’s such a disadvantage to
actors trying to break in I just I find it really bad I mean am I right about that I would say in some way yes in some
ways it really allows us to open up opportunity so I can let a 100 people
self tape for a role versus to see 100 people live on Zoom or in person it
becomes a lot so we use it in that way to say we don’t have time to see all 100
of you in person right but um we’d love to have you make a tape and and so we and and the way the SAG rule reads is
it’s first come first serve so if we ask for a 100 tapes let’s say we provide maybe 20 spots on Zoom or whatever it
might be and it’s first come first serve so it they’re they’re attempting to
create Equity but then it’s like these poor AG assistance and manager assistance of this like added pressure
of like if I don’t immediately click and request the zoom appointment and I don’t get one for our client you know it it’s
become this like really pressured thing and right we really try to be as generous as we can with it within reason
like if an actor is like I’m terrible at self taping please please let me Zoom if I can at all do it I will um but then
there’s actors who really prefer to self tape and they think they’re better served and they figured it out and they’d rather do it on their own time
than like make an appointment um and then we’re happy to let them do it yeah I guess I find it weird when when it’s
it has to do with who’s reading with them on the on the self tapes it’s often super awkward yes it’s a mother playing
you know a father playing it whatever and it’s all kind of there’s no one to ask with you know we give notes to the
reader we give notes just say read it quite simply so you don’t you know it doesn’t become distracting and then if
it is distracting then I zoom with them and ret tape it so that it’s matter it should be said Suzanne you know let’s
not forget we just cast the lead in the movie we’ve just made together remotely
it’s it felt like it was against my religion because I know it’s the it’s the first movie I’ve ever made where the
lead which is a 10-year-old girl turned 11 as we were shooting uh I cast her
without actually physically meeting her I mean that says a lot doesn’t it yeah
we did meet her mother if you remember too we met the par the mother because
that’s such an important thing with kid casting is like you’ve got to meet the parents because the parents you got to meet the parents if you’re casting kids
you you you’re casting the parents because they’re um I like what you said
Kathy and Suzanne about I really like that that you give the actor the choice
because you want the actor to give his or her best work whether it’s a self tape or it’s a live
I thought I thought that was great are we allowed to name drop on this show sure sure why not it’s kind of what
make it interesting kind of what people want isn’t it no I
mean I didn’t I just it just came to mind a story about self-taping in 1997 I
can’t believe I’m saying this uh and Craig you remember this film The Mighty and Jillian Anderson had heard that I
didn’t think she was right for a part in that film The Mighty and she was already really well known for that series she
did um and I had taught her at Cornell Universe for actors and it was so
unheard of she had a you know Sony 8 camera she put and she did a self tape
for this part that was nothing like her and nothing like anything she’d ever done I’ll never forget it and Harvey
Weinstein that’s another conversation but said you need to look at this you need to look at this self tap
10 seconds in I said she’s right I’m completely wrong she’s got the part I’m
I’m not name dropping when I give you that story I’m just saying it it’s going back to what you said suzan about
allowing the actor to to to give his or her best work you know it was just a
great moment and I learned a lesson when that happened you know um I know we’re
we’re starting to to run out of time I wanted to address um really one fin fin issue and then I have a general question
really for for Kathy and and Peter particularly in in the movie side today depending who the finance here or in in
the case of a studio or even an independent film um you know you often get a
response as a producer or director look we love the material but um you know in
order for us to Greenlight the movie um you know it really needs you know a
named actor um and I and I wonder how that does conflict you know for you as
producers and directors you know with your own um you know Creative Vision um
and and certainly that can also often put pressure on the budget where the financier or the distributor isn’t
agreeing to put up more money and then you find yourself having to reduce you know your own fees in order to
accommodate getting the film green lit but I but but I’d be interested in your thoughts the from the two of you how
that plays you know for you when that
happens um it’s really really
difficult um I mean I’ve kind of come to accept
the fact that the lead is probably going to be played by a star and it’s just a case of how big that star is or isn’t
um you know I always say I of my work probably more than ever but I hate my
business more than ever it’s that side of my business that’s why I need producers you know
um to help uh it’s just a game it’s just a dance you have to do with every single
film where you’re you’re balancing who’s right for the part and who means the most and who the financiers want the only thing I
would say which I said at the beginning of this is I’m all for the best actor
and Tailoring parts to suit so it’s not such a problem for me I think um but but
Kathy can answer better in terms of how it’s dominated choices in terms
of casting leads and movies look I I think you know there’s a
reason this is called Show Business not show show or business business you know it’s always going to be like a balance
between these two things we’ve chosen to be you know in a field where the metric
for success is how many tickets we sell or how many streamings you know how many
times people sign in and stream something and so I suppose that if we wanted to be fully authentic and
artistic we should be sculptors or authors or something where it doesn’t you know require that kind of economic
engagement so we’re always balancing these things that said you know there’s there’s no question that it creates an
impure you know process because instead of the art totally governing it you’ve
now got this balancing of Art and business the crazy part is that the best way to break this whole system would be
to not pay any actors $20 million so like the real problem is that the
budgets of the movies are out of whack due to the salaries of
celebrities so forget about the word star just celebrities it’s the it’s the it’s the obsession with celebrity that’s
happening both from the audience standpoint and the business standpoint that causing an aberration to the
budgets where people are choosing to be
influenced to see things by celebrity to buy because of celebrity the whole
system is run by a commercial form of influencing and as a result we’ve got
celebrities being paid so much more than the even the budget the actual making the the cost of making a movie is often
times significantly less than the celebrity salaries so the only way to
create a more artistic meritocracy would be to break the back of the insane
salary levels of celebrities but that’s not only driven by the companies that’s also driven by the audiences and so
unless we unlock ourselves from this Obsession um we’re going to constantly
be basing our economics on Celebrity values um Suzanne because this session
is focusing on on casting I’m going to let you have the final word like laoren o donnal um um if
you wanted to give some advice to a director or producer out there or some something that they should take away
from this discussion that’s important in the casting process and how to make it better and more effective what would you
say to them oh wow um I would say I mean for for people you
mean focused on people coming into the profession of directing yeah um okay uh
I would say really learn what you like about actors learn what and you don’t necessarily
need to know every actor out there like that’s a bit more of my job to to know that and to present options but really
knowing what you respond to like what Peter said he he he cannot stand evident acting meaning like when it’s put on or
it’s layered or you get caught acting it’s just it’s it or you’re um imp
implying it versus actually just doing it and talking and being and having a
conversation and you know in our office we jokingly say just be more human don’t
you’re acting just don’t act just be human um and I think it’s really getting
a Clear Vision of just what you like and what you respond to what your taste is
what your aesthetic is because if you really have no no idea what that is I
really have a hard time helping you and then it becomes more about you know you
know me teaching about that part of it than just presenting options that you you know the
director would get excited about um and I think that’s more important to know
what you like and what you respond to within an actor than to actually know every single actor that’s on the planet
that’s really my job well thank you so much I I know that we’re now out time um
I really want to thank um my three panelists for taking time out of their busy day to to share this knowledge to
our audience um it’s so valuable and useful and I’m extremely grateful so on
that note um I’m going to sign off please look forward for um the next two panel discussions that are going to come
up over the next few months and we look forward to uh being live with you again
very soon so thank you and and good night
